Had a 1st year partner, 8th grade girls. Blow out by EOQ1.
Loosers frustration building.

At start of Q2 something happened underneith and parter throws a "T". Then another one back to back. 2 differnet players same (loosing) team. BTW the home team.

So hell opens up. He didn't sell either, got flustered, didn't report, paced under the BBoard...pissed. Crowd on him hard, coach's up.....

I do my best to sort it out, calm him down, get the report, admin 2 shots, ask girls to settle down but my co was shook. Next time down the same way, I call foul - he calls and signals INTENTIONAL on same play in MY ZONE!

Gym starting to get real small.

I wanted to support him, but... he'd lost his demeaner! He was redfaced pacing still. Not reporting just blowing and pacing.

We needed a break. Told him I'd talk to coach's, he should "get it togather". I called coach's to table asked they help settle teams down. We inch'd along but I had 11 people on the court to watch now.

Any advice? Bad night.

Get in, get done, get out.

You've got no choice but to ride it out till halftime. Were you able to bring him back down during the break? Not a good situation, but not much that you can do about it, except try to calm him when you get the chance.

Chuck

I've been in this place a time or two -- not your place, but your partner's. Later wished I had a partner like you were. From the receiving end, what I would have liked was just the pause you engineered, with some encouraging words such as "Ref in the moment, let the past go." "I think we've got it under control now" "You can do this, and I need you" or some such. I'm wondering if the second half went better.

Being an official takes a certain mentality. I don't think you can develop it after you start working games, either. Your mental temperment is part of who you are and comes from your upbringing, your schooling, your social circle, etc.
Some people truly are not going to make good officials. It sounds like the partner you had this night is one of those.
It would be nice if this weren't true, I have no hope for this guy.

Your partner may not be well suited for officiating. That being the case, the very first time he gave the T's and was obviously flustered, if there was anything you could do, it was right then. Go to him and give him support (no matter what he's done). Say okay, what have you got? Ok, so we're going to need a shooter for four throws at this end right? We'll need to clear everyone out of here. I'll do that while you report the T's, we need to stay calm alright? I'll help you out, you report the T's and administer and I'll try to get the coaches to help us out, sound good? Ok, here we go, we'll get through it.
Just keep talking until he calms down enough to keep it from getting worse. It may not work, but it has helped me with a couple of guys that you swore wouldn't make it through one year.

During the half did you ask him why he gave the Ts? What was said or done? Also, why did he think the the 3rd foul in question was intentional? Did he see something that you did not see?

Had this happen once. I called a timeoput, treated it just like one of the teams had requested a full. While the teams were huddled at their benches, we had a qucik discussion and got our heads back on straight.

Worked for us.

You lose your cool, nooooooo. That could not possibly happen. :eek:

Peace

For once, you're right. It didn't. The timeout was for the benefit of my partner. But we're a crew on the floor, so we got our heads back on striaght and continued the game.

And what rule in the rulebook gave you that justification to do that? I guess you just like to ignore the rules or I guess you probably think you saw it on the Part 1 Exam from the National Federation? I see who needs to crack a book and get a grip. Must be a regional thing with North Carolina Officials.

Peace

NFHS 2-3
 

To the contrary, what rule did I break when I did this?

In the previous discussion, the rulebook specifically tells us that the scorer will "notify a team and its coach, through an official, whenever that team is granted its final allotted charged time-out." Yet, you choose to ignore the rule.

Please tell me what rule I have ignored.

My guess is that you ignore the time-out nitification rule because you didn't know it existed.

BTW, ever read this rule. "The referee shall make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the rules."

Re: NFHS 2-3
 

Amen. There's a whole bunch of those points some nights.

You called a timeout for what? You called a timeout, not for an injury, not because one of the teams called one, not for equiptment or safety issues, you called a timeout to collect yourselves. :eek: Good rational for the Referee's Authority under 2-3. Now I guess we are making it up as we go along. Officials makes a bad call, call an official's timeout. That is how the rules are intended to be used.

<b>In the previous discussion, the rulebook specifically tells us that the scorer will "notify a team and its coach, through an official, whenever that team is granted its final allotted charged time-out." Yet, you choose to ignore the rule.</b>

When did I say I ignored the rule? Or did I say that this was a courtesy or what not a priority? Did I say that in the effort to prevent other actions or this is not my first priority? It is not my priority to call 3 seconds? It is not my priority to call handchecking fouls on obvious layup opportunities. It is not my priorities to call every administrative T, especially if I can prevent it. You just made something up because you and your partner was having a bad game? What kind of crap is that? I guess I will just start calling "over the backs" even thought the rulebook does not specifically cover that in the rulebook I guess. Just like you <b>ignored your responsiblity</b> and made up what you wanted to do. Maybe that is why you need to find something else to do if you are having that kind of problem on the court. ;)

Peace

If a ref pulled a hamstring, wouldn't it be okay to stop long enough to at least drag him out of the way, or shall we just play around him. Therefore, if a ref loses his mind momentarily is it not just as okay to stop and let his partner(s) slap him around a bit or whatever it takes to straighten him out?

Actually,you said that there was NO such rule in the rulebook.That statement was proved completely false,but you refused to admit it.

Now can we drop this pointless argument.There was no reason to start it back up,anyway.

Maybe this is not for you?
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by just another ref

Quote:

If a ref pulled a hamstring, wouldn't it be okay to stop long enough to at least drag him out of the way, or shall we just play around him. Therefore, if a ref loses his mind momentarily is it not just as okay to stop and let his partner(s) slap him around a bit or whatever it takes to straighten him out?

If you are having that kind of emotional problem, then maybe this is not the thing for you to be doing. I guess you can do what you want, but there is no rule that supports such an action, just to "get it together." If that was the case, everytime you feel like something is wrong, you should call a timeout. You could be taking away the momentum from the players by doing this.

Peace

Not our responsibility
 

You are right JR, I said <b>there is no such rule</b> and there still is not such rule requiring for us as officials to inform a coach how many timeouts they have, when they run out. That is a scorers' responsibility and if they never say a thing to us, it goes by the waistside. It is not in our duties, which suggest to me that the NF does not want us always asking the table or trying to do their job for them. When I officiate, I try to trust the table not much differnet than I trust my partners. If they need to tell me something, I talk to them. If we have been fine all game, I leave them alone to do what they have to do. And again, most coaches already know what they have done and what they have left.

Peace

Re: Not our responsibility
 

Posted by J.Rutledge on December 12, 2002 at 17:53:55:

In Reply to: Re: Technical foul call posted by Joe Recruiter on December 12, 2002 at 17:16:06:

Maybe this is an regional thing, but by rule it is not our job to have definite knowledge.

What-the-hell is a "waistside?"

So, if we have a fight during a came, have to eject a couple of players, maybe a coach or two, we can't take a timeout to allow things to calm down and everyone to compose themselves?

BTW, you're taking things way out of context. In the play described, there was no momentum that was taken away from any players. In fact, the one that I called probably prevent my partner from popping a coach with a T. And I'm not discussing whether or not the official should be officiating or not. That's a separate issues.

BTW, if the scorer tells you that Team A has no more time-outs, you are required by rule to inform the coach. No matter what silly little term you use, like courtesy, it is a requirement.

Re:Unbelievable!
 

NFHS Rule 2-11-6 states "the scorers shall record the time-out information charged to each team(who and when)and notify a team and a coach,THROUGH AN OFFICIAL,whenever that team is granted it's final allotted charged time-out". Seems pretty simple to me that there IS a rule in the FED book and it is one of our duties. Btw,don't try and play with the language,Rut. Here's your quote from your post on the McGriff board- "Maybe this is a regional thing,but by rule it is not our job to have definite knowledge.It is a courtesy to give that information to a team...It's not even the scorekeeper's job to tell them other than asked".
That is plain and simply wrong,as many posters pointed out to you.That's all I've gotta say about this.

Re: Not our responsibility
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge

Quote:

When I officiate, I try to trust the table not much differnet than I trust my partners. If they need to tell me something, I talk to them. If we have been fine all game, I leave them alone to do what they have to do. And again, most coaches already know what they have done and what they have left. Peace

Rut - when you officiate you trust your partners and when you officiate you trust the table. i'm glad to know that in case i ever move to the chicagoland area and have the opportunity to work a game with you, i know i'll be trusted .

you say you trust the table and your partners to do a great job. i assume you COMMUNICATE with your partner(s) during the game. maybe you get together at the first time-out or at a quarter to discuss the game and it's flow. my question to you is this...

if you trust your partner(s) to do a great job and you still think it's important to talk to them, don't you think it's just as important to communicate with the table every once in a while?

Or do you not find it important to communicate with your partners either?

thanks for enlightening us all,
jkt

Re: Re: Not our responsibility
 

Why?

What else do you need to communicate other than what you already did before the game?

Peace

Re: Re:Unbelievable!
 

What I clearly said is true. It is not our responsiblity to be telling the teams, <b>how many timeouts they have left.</b> JR, you need to read a test, this has been a test question several years in a row. They always ask, "It is the responsiblity of the scorekeeper to inform the teams that they have one alotted timeout left?" This question has been false time after time, after time. It must be a regional thing if you feel it is necessary to inform teams of how many timeouts. If you do, it is your choice to do so. You are right, it is the duty of the scorer to inform the teams, "through the official." But it is not our primary or secondary responsibilty to inform them <b>on our own</b> or we are not responsible to <b>figure out how many timeouts a team has and then report it to the teams.</b> If the scorer, <b>never tells us</b> it is kind of hard to inform anyone, don't you think? If you feel you need to be always telling coaches things and always answering all their questions, maybe that is why half the people here are giving Ts every second for something they say. I have more important things to do other than informing coaches what their scorers already tell them (you know they have people that work with their teams).

I also find this very interesting, you want to hold me to this but you had in this very same conversation an official that said he would, "be looking at the ceiling when he knew a team was out of timeouts and they were requesting one" all in the name of <b>game management</b>. Now what rulebook is that in, but it illustrates that you and Tony want to make this personal, because I do not agree with your philosophy on officiating or other rule applications. Now if you want to hang out and shoot the sh!t with the table, so be it. But that is very much not taught and is not practice by many. I do not know many experienced officials that are at the table for anything other than when they are specifically called over. I have done about 5 games since this discussion started, and not one time was this ever a concern, an issue in a pregame or any kind of problem related to this rule as it seems to be so important to you guys. I belong to 4 different associations, went to about every single meeting and the only reason I missed any of the meetings was because of games I had, and this never came up as an issue. So yes, it must be a regional thing. If this is so important to where we have discussed this for the 1,000 time, then it must be. I have not even brought this up to any officials about this discussion and this is never an issue with them.

It just has to be a regional thing. Why else are you two making such a big deal out of this or any rule that you think the rest of us should apply?

Peace

There are only three reasons I communicate with the table after the game begins:

1) they made an error
2) occasionally, I check the team fouls if they are not on the scoreboard
3) at least one of the table personnel is a babe

Re: Re: Not our responsibility
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef


Maybe this is an regional thing, but by rule it is not our job to have definite knowledge.

<b>So, if we have a fight during a came, have to eject a couple of players, maybe a coach or two, we can't take a timeout to allow things to calm down and everyone to compose themselves?</b>

That is not what you did. You called a timeout because you and your partner "had to get it together." I do not see justifications for the rules using that logic.

<b>BTW, you're taking things way out of context.</b>

I just want to be like you. You do this all the time.

<b>In the play described, there was no momentum that was taken away from any players.</b>

Good justification.

<b>In fact, the one that I called probably prevent my partner from popping a coach with a T.</b>

When a coach rolls the dice, they might just crap out. Let him do his job. Who are you to come in and prevent something that your partner had every right to do. You make it up as you go along I see?

<b>And I'm not discussing whether or not the official should be officiating or not. That's a separate issues.</b>

Of course it is.

<b>BTW, if the scorer tells you that Team A has no more time-outs, you are required by rule to inform the coach.</b>

It is also required by rule to start a 3 second count with a toe on the lane line, but that does not mean everyone does it. It is also required for you to start a count when a defender is within 6 feet from the ball carrier, but I do not see that done all the time either. There are a lot of things required by rule, that is why they change them every year.

<b>No matter what silly little term you use, like courtesy, it is a requirement.</b>

If that is what you feel is so important, do it. I will do what I feel is best and works best for me. And the thing I think that kills you, is I will still do what I feel is right and necessary. This is not in any way a necessary application of the rules in any way. If a scorer tells the coach how many timeouts they have, I am not going to get all worked up over it. This actually happens all the time, and I never encourage it or discourage it. The home book tells the home team, the visiting book tells their team. Life is not that difficult. :confused:

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on Dec 23rd, 2002 at 06:56 PM]

You're a lost cause. I honestly don't know why any of us try to have a discussion with you. :(

I have the answer to that.
 

Your arrogance. Anyone that makes a big deal over a minor, and very insignificant rules to prove what kind of official they are, is very arrogant. :eek: Especially when that rule has not penalty, affects the game in no way and has a philosophy behind it. When you use words like the <b>rules mandate</b> when the rulebook uses no such language, you have issues. Tony, let it go.

Peace

You have to be exaggerating just a bit, don't you?

I mean, I do check the timeout situation and I do inform a bench if they've used their last timeout (see: The thread that will never die). But especially with an inexperienced table, I like to check in close games that we aren't going to have a book discrepancy at an inopportune time.

I agree on the babe comment, although most of the attractive people working the table these days are half my age. Or less. Of course I've noticed that most of the varsity boys' players have faces of 12 year olds transplanted on 6'4" bodies.

Rich

Returning to the original post
 

We played in a MS travel tournament recently that had a different set of clock rules than I have used. I missed the first weekend of the tournament, gave the rules to my assistant, and promptly forgot the rules were different. The clock stoppped for shooting fouls, but started when the ball was handed to the shootier for the last FT. In a 1 and 1, the clock started on 1st FT.

In our final game, and after a long day for all involved, we are down 8 and staging a comeback, when I notice a player is shooting FTs and the clock is running. I yell to trail (O1) about the clock, he lets the clock continue, lets the shot finish, we get the rebound, he stops play and comes to explain the rules to me. Except he is a little POd, and he kind of yells the explanation at me and said that he knew the rules, had been doing it all day, he had the clock, blah, blah, blah. (and this is the first time I have questioned anything all day!) I try to apologize, but he is off across the court and starting play.

We bring the ball up, and before we even get into our offense, O1 calls an illegal screen on one of my players. His call was yelled at the top of his lungs with visible anger, and he was staring at me like, "go ahead, just try to argue this." My player had not even made contact with the other player - not even a hint of contact. (When my player came out, she asked why the foul was called since the defender just ran by her, and I told her it was on me not her :) )

O2 sees all of this, calls time and takes his visibly angered O1 aside for an "official's conference." Don't know what was said, but O1 made a point of talking to me next time he was near our bench and apologized for yelling at me (but not for the foul call!) And there were no more loud angry calls for the last few minutes of the game.

Oh, and we cut it to 2 with 8 seconds to play, failed to steal the inbounds, fouled, and the girl hit both ends of the 1 and 1 with 6 seconds left - lost by 4.

Why do you call time in this situation? Simply to make the game better. That's what you're there for. If you can't find that in the rules, you should be able to find it in your sense of what your purpose on the court is at all times - make it a good game.

First year that I refereed- My very first High School game. I was Lead on the play Player A1 gets knocked to the floor and fell on by player B1. I froze could not blow the whistle(I guess I panicked). Time seems to come to a standstill. My partner next to Coach A, asked do I have anything. I shake my head no, My partner says to Coach A and I think B, I am taking an officials timeout. He comes over to me(tells me to let it go). I finish game as if it never happened. Whether anyone thinks it is in the rules or not that an official can do this. My partner did it....it made for a better game and neither coach complained.

AK ref SE