5 pt. play

[RookieDude]

H.S. Boys Varsity game the other night...
1:20 left in the game. Team A ahead of Team B by 4pts.
Team B had been leading most of the game, but Team A had made a vicious come back to take the lead.
Team B, behind by 4pts, was in their frontcourt working for a shot. I was Lead watching the post players.
Player B1 made a shot attempt behind the 3pt line at about the same time as I had Player A1 shoving B2 in the back, positioning for a possible rebound.
I call the foul, down low...and of course the 3pt attempt went in from the top. If B2 puts these 2 FT attempts in they now lead by 1...possible 5 pt. play...he did, and now Team B leads by 1.

Oh yes, before B2 shot his two FT's, player B1 went to the line instead. We "caught" him and got the right player to shoot. Meantime, the Coach for Team A wants us to give B1 a "T" for trying to shoot a free throw that wasn't his to shoot. I shook my head and continued with the FT's.
After the FT's Coach A called a TO. At this time I took the oportunity to go over and briefly explain to the Coach that player B1 could have been confused because of the whistle during his shot attempt on the 3.
(Probably wasn't confused, since it was a bonus 1-1, but who really knows) No "T"

Team A shoots a couple of 3's, misses, lets Team B tap in a two, on a missed block out, fouls a couple more times, and ends up losing the game by 6.
1st thing I said when I got in the Locker Room after the game was..."Dam*, should have held on the foul down low during that 3pt. attempt, that 5pt play killed um'"

Next day in the local paper...Coach A says "we mounted a great comeback, but that 5 point play killed us."

Were we both right?

Dude

[Tim Roden]

If it was a bad foul underneith or you had been calling it all night then that was a good call. 99% of the time I would say, hold your whistle and don't call a foul unless there is rebounding action in the area of the foul. The play killed the other team. Don't feel too bad. If you are calling a hundred games a year like most of us do, you are likely to kill a game or two with a bad whistle. We all have done it.

[Mark Dexter]

First of all, you didn't kill the win (nor did your call) - A1 committing an off-ball foul with a small lead did.

Also, if A's coach had spent some time coaching his team rather than arguing with you over a technical foul, he might have had a shot at winning.

That said, I probably would have felt "iffy" too on this foul. If you've been calling rebounds like this all game - fine. If it's an obvious push - definately call it, or you'll be giving a flagrant T when B2 punches back. If this has been going on all game and hasn't been called, it might not be the best thing to call, but it is still the right call.

[theboys]

Hey, I'm not a ref, but what if B1 misses the shot, you don't call the push, A1 gets the rebound, and Team A goes on to win by 4? Do you feel bad the other way?

Sounds to me like you did the right thing. Call 'em as you see 'em. Next time, Coach A's quote needs to read, "I need to teach my team to box out so we don't put ourselves in those kinds of situations."

[APHP]

"Shoving in the back" sounds lke a foul to me. Assumeing you did/would have called the same thing a foul earlier.

[ChuckElias]

I know nobody really cares, but in the NBA, you'd give B2 one free throw (to complete the "4-point play") and play from the make or miss.

Chuck

Mostly responding to theBoys comment.

I think what some of the guys were saying is that when the shot goes up you should be able to tell and when you see the push after the shot has gone up hold your whistle and don't call the foul unless it puts B at a disadvantage for the rebound if the shot is missed. If the shot goes in there really isn't any advantage/disadvantage so let the push go.

Now the case is if the push displaces B2 enough that it is more violent contact then you should call it no matter what.

I have been reading the posts on this board for about a year and there have been many threads regarding this situation and I would have to say that what I wrote above is what I have taken from those threads.

[Refneck]

The key phrase to remember before calling ANY off-the-ball foul (or even three seconds for that matter) is, "FIND THE BALL!"

If you know where the ball is on those situations, it can make life much easier. Tough call, but handled very well, IMO.

[Ron]

If a shot is a 3, it could be very difficult to hold your whistle until the result of the shot is known. The time between the whistle and the ball hitting or missing would seem like an eternity (but maybe only to the calling official!).

Don't feel badly about making that call; it's within your rights. Check out this situation, just for laughs.........

A couple weekends ago, I'm doing a varsity boys game; a tournament semi-final. Team A leads by 5, with about 40 seconds left in OT. Team B rushes down the floor, and attempts a 3 from near the top of the key (I'm the trail). The shot's in the air, and I hear my partner's whistle. The shot falls, and my partner immediately runs towards the table. I figure that he called a push underneath while the shot was in flight. He calls me to the table to ensure that we administer his call correctly. He tells me that he called a technical foul on a team A player for yelling "Hey!" as he challenged the 3 point shot. That's right. He called that from under the basket, while I was standing no more than 8 feet from the shooter (by the way, I didn't hear the kid yell anything!). So........team B hits both technical FT's (tie game, as a result of this 5 point play), and team B inbounds at halfcourt. My partner calls team B for a 5 second violation (I'm thinking "makeup call"), then team A hits a buzzer-beater for the win. The bottom line, from my perspective......you did nothing to influence the outcome of your game, but my partner almost decided our game all by himself.

[bigwhistle]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
I know nobody really cares, but in the NBA, you'd give B2 one free throw (to complete the "4-point play") and play from the make or miss.

You got that one right!! Nobody cares.

[zebraman]

As others have stated:
If you were making that call all game, good call.
If it was too much contact to ignore, good call.

If you think passing on the call might have been the better thing to do, you'll be more likely to hold your whistle next time. Been there, done that.

Z

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by zebraman
As others have stated:
If you were making that call all game, good call.
If it was too much contact to ignore, good call.

If you think passing on the call might have been the better thing to do, you'll be more likely to hold your whistle next time. Been there, done that.

Z

We were making that call all game, in fact my partner had a similar one on the other end earlier in the game...bucket good, but shooting team fouled while ball was in the air.

Yes, the contact was probably too much to ignore...since the opponent turned around after he was pushed and might have made contact with a push of his own. (In fact, I would like to see the tape...I might have been able to get them both on hindsight. Double foul, bucket good, go to the arrow...hmmmmmmm)

Also, we had good control of the game. No B.S. from the Coaches...when the Coach wanted the "T" he didn't yell about it...he just looked at me and gave the "T" sign with a shrug of the shoulders...hoping for a call. That's why I went over and gave him the courtesy of a brief explanation.(After the FT's and during his Time Out.)

In the end, I still like the HOLD WHISTLE and see what happens scenerio.

Dude
P.S. Team A 17 fouls....Team B 16 fouls


[Edited by RookieDude on Dec 17th, 2002 at 05:21 PM]

[ScottParks]

Originally posted by RookieDude

We were making that call all game, in fact my partner had a similar one on the other end earlier in the game...bucket good, but shooting team fouled while ball was in the air.

Yes, the contact was probably too much to ignore...since the opponent turned around after he was pushed and might have made contact with a push of his own. (In fact, I would like to see the tape...I might have been able to get them both on hindsight. Double foul, bucket good, go to the arrow...hmmmmmmm)

Also, we had good control of the game. No B.S. from the Coaches...when the Coach wanted the "T" he didn't yell about it...he just looked at me and gave the "T" sign with a shrug of the shoulders...hoping for a call. That's why I went over and gave him the courtesy of a brief explanation.(After the FT's and during his Time Out.)

In the end, I still like the HOLD WHISTLE and see what happens scenerio.

Dude
P.S. Team A 17 fouls....Team B 16 fouls


[Edited by RookieDude on Dec 17th, 2002 at 05:21 PM]

Yeah, but did you call it both ways?