Butler-VCU (or VCU-Butler) Conversation
 

yakety yak here

Butler is favored by 2.5

Amazed
 

I am from Richmond, went to grad shool at VCU, and did work for the Jeff Capel show.

Im still simply amazed that VCU is in the Final Four. It almost surreal to me. And I never thought, that at any point, my grad school would have a MUCH better basketball program than my undergrad.

Again, amazing.

Since my mom went to Butler back in the day. I am torn. Do I revert to the ways of my rebellious youth and go w/ VCU? Or do I look to the future and stay in "The Will" and root for Butler?
Decisions Decisions.

Depends where you're watching the game! :p

I'm assuming you went to Maryland. If not, please ignore the rest of this post.

Three weeks ago, Shaka Smart didn't gather his team to watch the selection show because he had no expectation that they'd even be invited.

VCU's run has been nothing short of amazing, and I would be thrilled if it lasted two more games. But do five wins in a row make them a "MUCH better basketball program" than Maryland? There's an extremely strong likelihood that the person coaching VCU next season is someone that even most passionate college hoops fans haven't heard of yet. I think that is a much more accurate measure of the difference between VCU's program and Maryland's program right now.

Maryland didn't even get into the NIT. :eek:

Didn't like Driscoll's block call on Butler from the C. Would have liked to see him defer to Luckie in the Lead.

Lucky had the foul, but held it and deferred.

Yeah, b/c Driscoll came in banging his hips.

oh, he sold it!

That's a good call for the C to make - Driscoll was a just bit behind the play, so don't think he had the best look.

Says "disconnected"

To me, Luckie, in the Lead, had the better look.

A good pregame?

I see that we are already discussing the block/charge- sorry for ignoring this thread....
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Anybody have a differing opinion on the block called on Butler midway through the first half? From my great angle on the couch, it looked like Butler established LGP then had a quick bunny hop backwards prior to contact. In any event, the C came in hard with the call on a double whistle for the block.
The L didn't even flinch, other than a fist in the air. No budge, no initial movement, no nothing...

Not that it matters from me, but I thought it was an impressive display of solid mechanics at the highest level on a play that we work so hard to get right both on the floor and through proper mechanics. For those of us less experienced, it's a great lesson in how proper mechanics can keep the rhythm of the game intact without having to explain a blarge, or the L doing anything other than what he's supposed to do- hit the whistle, fist up and check your partners before doing anything.

Make the call, keep the game going and most people don't even know what kind of game management problems were just avioded.

Z

Because Driscoll was behind the play. If he's in position, it's still better for C to take the call IMO

On most fast breaks the C is gonna be behind the play and closer to the ballhandler. The Lead has an open look on both players.

Well, I said "at any point" and as someone else said, this year VCU made the Final Four and Maryland didn't even make the NIT. And to a larger extent, I do believe that VCU's program is in better shape relatively speaking.

In the past 5 years, VCU has made the same number of tournament appearances as Maryland and this year advanced much further than Maryland has since winning the title. Maryland has not been past the 2nd round in the past 8 years and has had one of the worst post championship runs of any NCAA champ of the last 20 years.

And as good of a game coach as Gary Williams is, he can't/won't recruit to save his life. Despite playing in a high profile conference, having great facilities, and being located right in the middle of one of the most talent rich areas in the country, Maryland has let all of the momentum of a NCAA title fall to the wayside.

VCU, on the other hand, has consistently played well for the last 10 years, put 3 young coaches on the map, and has, this year in particular, pretty much maximized their resources. So as an alum of both schools, I stand by my statement. In terms of making the most of their situations, VCU's basketball program is running circles around Maryland's right now.

Now back to discussing block/charges and all that good stuff.

"Most"? Don't know about that.

Hey VaTerp, I work with Jeff's mom. Talked to her the other day. looks like Jeff might take a year off before returning to coaching. Jeff Sr. might be doing the same. Jeff Jr. is moving back to NC. Thought you might be interested.

Here's the play that zeedonk is referring to:

<iframe title="YouTube video player" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/YqFTWOTx6ds?hd=1" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="390" width="640"></iframe>

Block or charge?

<iframe title="YouTube video player" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/rAp7kC1OFt4?hd=1" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="390" width="640"></iframe>

Foul or a player getting out jumped?

<iframe title="YouTube video player" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/HqHNW31R3j8?hd=1" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="390" width="640"></iframe>

Marginal/incidental contact or charge?

charge on both and nothing on rebound foul. Anyone else? Granted, I'm not on the floor for that game, but hey, you asked, and i gave my .01 cents :D

I concur...

Kudos to the LEAD for following the "Double whistle not double preliminary" rule!!
Here is my question, and Im drawing a blank. IMO it looked like the VCU player started into his 'shooting/lay up' motion prior to making contact with the Butler player. However, when contact was made IMO again the Butler player was 'there'.
So my question is: Does the shooting motion supercede LGP or vice versa? I'm sure it is an easy answer but like I said, drawing a blank

The Butler guy was late - not by a lot, but still late. If the VCU player starts his layup before the defender "is there", it's a block.

Two things on that play - (1) excellent lead positioning by Luckie, he's boxing in the play close as opposed to being on the sideline; Driscoll is behind the play, so Luckie has a better look, even though he gives up the call. I'd bet my bottom dollar they've both got the same call, though. (2) - this is what separates the big dogs from those below them - not just the signal and hold, but the 'primary' guy taking it, which was either pregamed or a natural part of their repetroire.

Agree with Clark Kellogg - a ticky-tack call.

I thought it was odd that all three guys passed on this. Centre has a PERFECT look. It wasn't a train wreck, but the defender obviously had position and got knocked over.

Gathering for or starting the shooting motion does not "supersede" the defender's LGP, meaning the defender still has opportunity to beat the offensive player to the spot.

If that play is a block it would be b/c contact was with the defender's right knee which appears to be outside his natural stance, not because he wasn't there first or didn't have LGP.

I'm really disappointed with Kellogg this year. I have found him to be pretty good in the past, and not all that bad from a ref's point of view, but this year, he's been a lot less understanding about basic rules and vocabulary. Doggone it.

I agree on all three counts.

It is not the beginning of the shooting motion or the try which matters. It is the point at which the offensive player becomes airborne, and airborne is defined as BOTH feet having left the playing surface.
Until that time the defender may obtain any spot on the court and draw a charge, with the exception of directly under the basket at the NCAA level.

I have to disagree with your understanding of the college rule. As I just wrote above, the start of the layup has nothing to do with it. I suggest that you take a few moments and dig into the NCAA rulesbook, and then see if your position changes. Of course, what you have written is the way that the NBA does it. I have no idea how FIBA handles these situations.

BTW on the block/charge play involving #23 of VCU and Vanzant of Butler, I don't believe that the VCU player is in the act of shooting at the time of the contact. He has gathered the ball, but has made no motion that I can see which involves starting to throw for goal. In the super-slow one can see that he isn't even looking at the ring at the time of the contact. It isn't until afterwards that he squares himself and shoots.

Really? This is easily in the act to me....wasn't even a question.

Yes, really!

Go back to your video clip (which is awesome btw [thanks so much for doing these!]) and pause it at 45 seconds. That looks to me to be an excellent moment of contact point. Please take that still photo and post it. I don't believe that the VCU player is doing anything that is part of the act of shooting. He has simply ended his dribble by grabbing the ball with two hands and is taking steps across the lane. He is merely on his way to where he wishes to jump from and make his try for goal. The defender prevented him from reaching that location.

Lastly, please note that the player is RIGHT-handed, yet at the moment of contact he is holding the ball off to the left side of his head with the palm of his RIGHT (shooting) hand facing away from the goal. Obviously, he may attempt a left-handed layup with his off hand, but that doesn't look to be likely from the game action to me. He even subsequently pulls up following the contact, twists the ball around to reorient his hands the other way, and then takes a short jumper.

I'll grant that the player does intend to shoot as there is no other option for him given his court location and the placement of the other players. However, he wasn't yet shooting at the time of the contact. It seems that you consider him to be attempting a try due to his proximity to the goal. If we teleported this action to the division line, then no one would think that the player was in the act.

That's the answer I think I am looking for. I do disagree in that I thought he was in the act of shooting but based on not being airborne I think they may have missed this one. (Yes, I even super s l o w moded it) To me it looked like he gathered, took a step then crash. BUT the first part is what I was looking for!!

Player control. My belief is that the C's call was 100% wrong.

No foul here. The call took away a great rebounding effort.

I've got a foul against the ball carrier.

Boys, if that is not a charge (the one where Jamie held the call), then there is no such thing as a charge. Offesive player straight thru torso of defender with LGP. Easy, easy call. I am sure Jamie had a charge...

From the looks of his body language as he finishes his signal and looks at Luckie, I don't think Driscoll liked the call very much. Of course he might have been fine with the call, but just a little nervous about what might have been had Luckie not held his preliminary.

Looks like an easy charge to me.

...says my wife when she goes shopping...

He also seems to feel like he has to talk CONSTANTLY.

Steve Kerr can barely get a word in but when he does, his comments are far more interesting.

Do us a favor tonight, Clark. Don't talk just because you can.

Like I posted earlier, there is an argument for a blocking foul based on the defender's knee sticking out. Depends if you felt the first contact was to the torso or to the leg.

Hmm. That's what I get for commenting after one view. I think the first contact was with the extended leg/knee, but I think that contact was incidental and had no effect on either player. The contact in the torso, however, was PC foul.

That, of course, is with the benefit of slow motion replay. It's a lot more natural in real time, from the C's angle, to see that outstretched leg and call a block. I can't fault him for that.

Rebounding foul....

Perhaps the call was for the push in the back that moved the VCU player forward a couple of feet before they went up for the ball. Had the Butler player not moved him forward, the Butler player wouldn't have been able to get to the rebound. I'd delay the whistle on that to see if the ball came off in that direction before blowing that a foul.

The style signal provided seemed imply it was for that part of the action.

Agreed. Delayed whistle with the correct result.

I agree with the fact that the defense stuck out his leg. That was his only option as the offense was making an attempt to change direction - even if it was just enough to try to avoid the defense.

As far as the attempt to shoot, he was going to shoot. He was leading a 1 on 1 break with everyone else trailing the play by 6-10 feet.

Block, shooting FT's

As far as the rebounding play, the Butler player pushed the VCU player on the release. Although I don't think I would have called a foul on this play. Typically the defense has to withstand a great deal of contact by the offense and by the time they stop loosing ground they are no longer able to jump.

The last play, the Butler player did not establish LGP, but I had the advantage of slow motion. The VCU player had started to elevate before the Butler player had LGP. Without replay, I probably call the PC.

Sorry, but the push created a huge advantage. The defense doesn't have to withstand any contact, especially contact that both displaces and disadvantages them. The only possible (not necessarily valid) complaint is that the whistle was late; but it was the right call.

Was going to is not the same as being in the act of shooting at the time of the contact.

I already wrote that attempting to score was his only option on the play due to the location of the other players, but if he hadn't yet begun his shooting motion then he can't be awarded FTs.

I completely disagree. He had LGP before the VCU player even took off on his jump stop. Two feet down, facing the offensive player. What do you think he was lacking?

Whether the contact was incidental or not is tough to argue from this angle, IMO, but there's no real question that he had LGP in plenty of time.

You mean like Kenyan Martin pushed Lamar Odom completely under the basket yesterday? :D

I saw that play...saw nothing wrong with the play and Lamar Odom would tell you the same thing.

There may be nothing wrong with that play at the NBA level but in NCAA and NFHS that is a foul.

True that

Here are my takes on the play just seeing them for what they are and having no idea about the game:

1) I have block- the defender does get into a LGP but the off. player does a good job and I believe he is going to slip by him and the defender sticks his leg out and elbow out to "force" the contact.

2) Definitely not a rebounding foul.

3) Definitely an offensive foul.

I don't like questioning officials calls without talking to the officials in person, these are good plays though and as long as we learn from them I like it.

I had no doubt that you would have a block on play #1 when you finally posted due to your pro-mentality on block/charge situations. :(

not thinking pro philosophy just not gonna give a kid an offensive foul when he sticks his elbow out to cause the contact. That is outside his "frame" and imo there would have been far less contact had he not done that.

BTW it's not "pro philosophy" it's just rules that I go by. Philosophy would be like saying most refs believe if a player's head is past the defender's shoulders it should be a block. That is philosophy. Rules are more concrete such as, if the defender's body is not in the off. player's path and he doesn't beat him to that spot first then it is a block.. That is a rule.

Didn't want to teach class, but seems you need to be educated on the difference since you want to take pod shots at me.

You saying that to me is like me saying, "yeah I can see you making that call an offenisve foul.... with your high school thought processes..."

I am more than willing to hear your in-depth detailing and reasoning why you think it is an offensive foul other than he takes it in the torso, cause that is not the case at all.

I don't know Nevada's reasoning, but mine is simple. The contact on the knee was incidental, no advantage either way. The contact on the torso, however, was a PC foul.

Just because the defender sticks his knee out doesn't absolve the offensive player from responsibility. If you judge the contact on the knee "caused" the contact on the torso, then go with the block.

Oh, and the head/shoulders thing is rule now, not philosophy. 10-6-8

oh ok thank you for that. So you believe he hits him in the torso?? Maybe the shoulder but I can barely see torso, but after watching it by play pausing the super slo mo I'm ok with ppl saying offensive foul... I just believe the player could have gotten by with less contact without the knee and the elbow being stuck out and also after play-pausing I believe the defender leans over and forward(into) the off. player but that's just what I am seeing. Player's leaning, stepping forward and sticking parts of their body outside their plane is not legal to me. That may just be me.

Not the best angle in the world from the camera, to be sure. Frankly, on a play like this, either call is at least somewhat defendable.