Butler-VCU (or VCU-Butler) Conversation

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by vbzebra

charge on both and nothing on rebound foul. Anyone else? Granted, I'm not on the floor for that game, but hey, you asked, and i gave my .01 cents

I agree on all three counts.

Originally Posted by Judtech

Kudos to the LEAD for following the "Double whistle not double preliminary" rule!!
Here is my question, and Im drawing a blank. IMO it looked like the VCU player started into his 'shooting/lay up' motion prior to making contact with the Butler player. However, when contact was made IMO again the Butler player was 'there'.
So my question is: Does the shooting motion supercede LGP or vice versa? I'm sure it is an easy answer but like I said, drawing a blank

It is not the beginning of the shooting motion or the try which matters. It is the point at which the offensive player becomes airborne, and airborne is defined as BOTH feet having left the playing surface.
Until that time the defender may obtain any spot on the court and draw a charge, with the exception of directly under the basket at the NCAA level.

Originally Posted by canuckrefguy

The Butler guy was late - not by a lot, but still late. If the VCU player starts his layup before the defender "is there", it's a block.

I have to disagree with your understanding of the college rule. As I just wrote above, the start of the layup has nothing to do with it. I suggest that you take a few moments and dig into the NCAA rulesbook, and then see if your position changes. Of course, what you have written is the way that the NBA does it. I have no idea how FIBA handles these situations.

[Nevadaref]

BTW on the block/charge play involving #23 of VCU and Vanzant of Butler, I don't believe that the VCU player is in the act of shooting at the time of the contact. He has gathered the ball, but has made no motion that I can see which involves starting to throw for goal. In the super-slow one can see that he isn't even looking at the ring at the time of the contact. It isn't until afterwards that he squares himself and shoots.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

BTW on the block/charge play involving #23 of VCU and Vanzant of Butler, I don't believe that the VCU player is in the act of shooting at the time of the contact. He has gathered the ball, but has made no motion that I can see which involves starting to throw for goal. In the super-slow one can see that he isn't even looking at the ring at the time of the contact. It isn't until afterwards that he squares himself and shoots.

Really? This is easily in the act to me....wasn't even a question.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Really? This is easily in the act to me....wasn't even a question.

Yes, really!

Go back to your video clip (which is awesome btw [thanks so much for doing these!]) and pause it at 45 seconds. That looks to me to be an excellent moment of contact point. Please take that still photo and post it. I don't believe that the VCU player is doing anything that is part of the act of shooting. He has simply ended his dribble by grabbing the ball with two hands and is taking steps across the lane. He is merely on his way to where he wishes to jump from and make his try for goal. The defender prevented him from reaching that location.

Lastly, please note that the player is RIGHT-handed, yet at the moment of contact he is holding the ball off to the left side of his head with the palm of his RIGHT (shooting) hand facing away from the goal. Obviously, he may attempt a left-handed layup with his off hand, but that doesn't look to be likely from the game action to me. He even subsequently pulls up following the contact, twists the ball around to reorient his hands the other way, and then takes a short jumper.

I'll grant that the player does intend to shoot as there is no other option for him given his court location and the placement of the other players. However, he wasn't yet shooting at the time of the contact. It seems that you consider him to be attempting a try due to his proximity to the goal. If we teleported this action to the division line, then no one would think that the player was in the act.

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

BTW on the block/charge play involving #23 of VCU and Vanzant of Butler, I don't believe that the VCU player is in the act of shooting at the time of the contact. He has gathered the ball, but has made no motion that I can see which involves starting to throw for goal. In the super-slow one can see that he isn't even looking at the ring at the time of the contact. It isn't until afterwards that he squares himself and shoots.

That's the answer I think I am looking for. I do disagree in that I thought he was in the act of shooting but based on not being airborne I think they may have missed this one. (Yes, I even super s l o w moded it) To me it looked like he gathered, took a step then crash. BUT the first part is what I was looking for!!