The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #31 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 04, 2011, 12:30am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,902
Quote:
Originally Posted by vbzebra View Post
charge on both and nothing on rebound foul. Anyone else? Granted, I'm not on the floor for that game, but hey, you asked, and i gave my .01 cents
I agree on all three counts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judtech View Post
Kudos to the LEAD for following the "Double whistle not double preliminary" rule!!
Here is my question, and Im drawing a blank. IMO it looked like the VCU player started into his 'shooting/lay up' motion prior to making contact with the Butler player. However, when contact was made IMO again the Butler player was 'there'.
So my question is: Does the shooting motion supercede LGP or vice versa? I'm sure it is an easy answer but like I said, drawing a blank
It is not the beginning of the shooting motion or the try which matters. It is the point at which the offensive player becomes airborne, and airborne is defined as BOTH feet having left the playing surface.
Until that time the defender may obtain any spot on the court and draw a charge, with the exception of directly under the basket at the NCAA level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by canuckrefguy View Post
The Butler guy was late - not by a lot, but still late. If the VCU player starts his layup before the defender "is there", it's a block.
I have to disagree with your understanding of the college rule. As I just wrote above, the start of the layup has nothing to do with it. I suggest that you take a few moments and dig into the NCAA rulesbook, and then see if your position changes. Of course, what you have written is the way that the NBA does it. I have no idea how FIBA handles these situations.
Reply With Quote
  #32 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 04, 2011, 12:35am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,902
BTW on the block/charge play involving #23 of VCU and Vanzant of Butler, I don't believe that the VCU player is in the act of shooting at the time of the contact. He has gathered the ball, but has made no motion that I can see which involves starting to throw for goal. In the super-slow one can see that he isn't even looking at the ring at the time of the contact. It isn't until afterwards that he squares himself and shoots.
Reply With Quote
  #33 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 04, 2011, 01:31am
APG APG is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,889
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
BTW on the block/charge play involving #23 of VCU and Vanzant of Butler, I don't believe that the VCU player is in the act of shooting at the time of the contact. He has gathered the ball, but has made no motion that I can see which involves starting to throw for goal. In the super-slow one can see that he isn't even looking at the ring at the time of the contact. It isn't until afterwards that he squares himself and shoots.
Really? This is easily in the act to me....wasn't even a question.
__________________
Chaos isn't a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some, given a chance to climb, they refuse. They cling to the realm, or the gods, or love. Illusions.

Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.

Reply With Quote
  #34 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 04, 2011, 03:43am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,902
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer View Post
Really? This is easily in the act to me....wasn't even a question.
Yes, really!

Go back to your video clip (which is awesome btw [thanks so much for doing these!]) and pause it at 45 seconds. That looks to me to be an excellent moment of contact point. Please take that still photo and post it. I don't believe that the VCU player is doing anything that is part of the act of shooting. He has simply ended his dribble by grabbing the ball with two hands and is taking steps across the lane. He is merely on his way to where he wishes to jump from and make his try for goal. The defender prevented him from reaching that location.

Lastly, please note that the player is RIGHT-handed, yet at the moment of contact he is holding the ball off to the left side of his head with the palm of his RIGHT (shooting) hand facing away from the goal. Obviously, he may attempt a left-handed layup with his off hand, but that doesn't look to be likely from the game action to me. He even subsequently pulls up following the contact, twists the ball around to reorient his hands the other way, and then takes a short jumper.

I'll grant that the player does intend to shoot as there is no other option for him given his court location and the placement of the other players. However, he wasn't yet shooting at the time of the contact. It seems that you consider him to be attempting a try due to his proximity to the goal. If we teleported this action to the division line, then no one would think that the player was in the act.

Last edited by Nevadaref; Mon Apr 04, 2011 at 03:50am.
Reply With Quote
  #35 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 04, 2011, 07:13am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Not where I was previously
Posts: 1,060
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
BTW on the block/charge play involving #23 of VCU and Vanzant of Butler, I don't believe that the VCU player is in the act of shooting at the time of the contact. He has gathered the ball, but has made no motion that I can see which involves starting to throw for goal. In the super-slow one can see that he isn't even looking at the ring at the time of the contact. It isn't until afterwards that he squares himself and shoots.
That's the answer I think I am looking for. I do disagree in that I thought he was in the act of shooting but based on not being airborne I think they may have missed this one. (Yes, I even super s l o w moded it) To me it looked like he gathered, took a step then crash. BUT the first part is what I was looking for!!
Reply With Quote
  #36 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 04, 2011, 09:54am
Fav theme: Roundball Rock
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Near Dog River (sorta)
Posts: 8,558
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer View Post
Here's the play that zeedonk is referring to:

Block or charge?
Player control. My belief is that the C's call was 100% wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer View Post
Foul or a player getting out jumped?
No foul here. The call took away a great rebounding effort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer View Post
Marginal/incidental contact or charge?
I've got a foul against the ball carrier.
__________________
Pope Francis
Reply With Quote
  #37 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 04, 2011, 09:56am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 41
Boys, if that is not a charge (the one where Jamie held the call), then there is no such thing as a charge. Offesive player straight thru torso of defender with LGP. Easy, easy call. I am sure Jamie had a charge...
Reply With Quote
  #38 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 04, 2011, 10:46am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 285
Quote:
Originally Posted by drofficial View Post
Boys, if that is not a charge (the one where Jamie held the call), then there is no such thing as a charge. Offesive player straight thru torso of defender with LGP. Easy, easy call. I am sure Jamie had a charge...
From the looks of his body language as he finishes his signal and looks at Luckie, I don't think Driscoll liked the call very much. Of course he might have been fine with the call, but just a little nervous about what might have been had Luckie not held his preliminary.
Reply With Quote
  #39 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 04, 2011, 10:48am
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Looks like an easy charge to me.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #40 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 04, 2011, 11:43am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Not where I was previously
Posts: 1,060
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Looks like an easy charge to me.
...says my wife when she goes shopping...
Reply With Quote
  #41 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 04, 2011, 11:59am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 14,614
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juulie Downs View Post
I'm really disappointed with Kellogg this year. I have found him to be pretty good in the past, and not all that bad from a ref's point of view, but this year, he's been a lot less understanding about basic rules and vocabulary. Doggone it.
He also seems to feel like he has to talk CONSTANTLY.

Steve Kerr can barely get a word in but when he does, his comments are far more interesting.

Do us a favor tonight, Clark. Don't talk just because you can.
__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott

"You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith
Reply With Quote
  #42 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 04, 2011, 02:16pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 14,498
Quote:
Originally Posted by drofficial View Post
Boys, if that is not a charge (the one where Jamie held the call), then there is no such thing as a charge. Offesive player straight thru torso of defender with LGP. Easy, easy call. I am sure Jamie had a charge...
Like I posted earlier, there is an argument for a blocking foul based on the defender's knee sticking out. Depends if you felt the first contact was to the torso or to the leg.
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR
Reply With Quote
  #43 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 04, 2011, 04:01pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
Like I posted earlier, there is an argument for a blocking foul based on the defender's knee sticking out. Depends if you felt the first contact was to the torso or to the leg.
Hmm. That's what I get for commenting after one view. I think the first contact was with the extended leg/knee, but I think that contact was incidental and had no effect on either player. The contact in the torso, however, was PC foul.

That, of course, is with the benefit of slow motion replay. It's a lot more natural in real time, from the C's angle, to see that outstretched leg and call a block. I can't fault him for that.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #44 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 04, 2011, 04:14pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,206
Rebounding foul....

Perhaps the call was for the push in the back that moved the VCU player forward a couple of feet before they went up for the ball. Had the Butler player not moved him forward, the Butler player wouldn't have been able to get to the rebound. I'd delay the whistle on that to see if the ball came off in that direction before blowing that a foul.

The style signal provided seemed imply it was for that part of the action.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Reply With Quote
  #45 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 04, 2011, 04:30pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Rebounding foul....

Perhaps the call was for the push in the back that moved the VCU player forward a couple of feet before they went up for the ball. Had the Butler player not moved him forward, the Butler player wouldn't have been able to get to the rebound. I'd delay the whistle on that to see if the ball came off in that direction before blowing that a foul.

The style signal provided seemed imply it was for that part of the action.
Agreed. Delayed whistle with the correct result.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Butler/Pittsburgh jimpiano Basketball 1 Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:50am
Butler vs Duke - CREW LeRoy Basketball 62 Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:08pm
Ball on floor K-State/Butler tomegun Basketball 20 Sun Mar 28, 2010 01:21pm
Butler vs. Wisconsin-Milwaukee SamIAm Basketball 8 Thu Feb 19, 2009 08:14pm
Clev. St. v. Butler- BI on free throw NewNCref Basketball 5 Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:55pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:05pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1