Notice NCAA tournament blatant disregard for 6-foot closely guarded distance?
 

I've noticed repeatedly that in order to maintain the closely guarded count, the defender has to be almost on top of the offensive player. If he's 4-6' away, officials almost exclusively give the "safe" sign. Seems like no one has any interest in adhering to this rule.

This isn't exclusive to the tournament, not from what I've seen anyways.

This calls for a congressional inquiry. Or...dare I say it...maybe even a poll!

Blatant disregard or a slower, more educated start to begin the count?

Nobody is tuning in to see c/g calls...
Honestly, I've noticed in the HS game that we begin many counts that only get to one. Why waste energy on 3 or 4 seperate counts that only get to 1 in each possession??
Once we figure out what plays the offense is running & where the ball is going next, its easier to referee c/g, illegal screens, etc.


On 3/30 7:08pm MST Mr. Adams said:
"With the exception of probably the end of 3 games, I think the officiating in the NCAA tournament has been pretty terrific."

I would also say that a closely guarded count is not as important in the college game compared to high school since a shot clock is implemented. In high school, its importance is a lot higher (in non-shot clock states), since it's one of the few avenues for a team to combat keep-away ball. In college...play 35 seconds (too long IMO but that's another story)/30 seconds of good defense and you'll have an opportunity to rebound a miss, force a turnover or inbound after a make.

Plus, isn't the rule three feet, not six feet anyways?

Title IX ...
 

NCAAW or NCAAM ???

While holding the ball in f/c or b/c.

NCAA-M is six feet and in the frontcourt while a player is dribbling or holding the ball. NCAA-W it's 3 feet, backcourt or frontcourt and only when holding the ball.

Ah ok, my bad.

Yikes! This forum is usually focused on making rulings by the book, not based on what people tune in to see. Nobody is tuning in to see 3-seconds violations or fouls 94-feet from the basket with 0.7 seconds left. That doesn't mean they don't get called.

But that's really my observation. It certainly looks as if officials have been told not to make this kind of call. I also agree it's less necessary in college than NFHS due to the shot clock, but it's still a NCAA-M rule. If they're not going to call it, change the distance like NCAA-W or do away with it?

And it's not a comment about the quality of the officiating overall, just something I noticed on this situation specifically.

"Safe" sign?

One of my pet peeves with the FED rules is that we're supposed to be enforcing the six foot rule when a defender is just standing within six feet of the ball handler even if he's looking at the ceiling and picking his nose. To me, the term "closely guarded" means the defender is actually "guarding" the guy.

Now, I realize it would be virtually impossible to have the rule changed to only be enforced if, in the opinion of the official, the defender was actually putting some defensive pressure on the ball handler, so I don't have a good suggestion on how to change the rule, unless it's to just zap it.

I do agree with those of you who feel that if you have a shot clock, there's no need to have a 10 second back court rule, so maybe we can include the five second rule in that same argument.

I don't agree.

It is a lot easier for an offense to play keep-away if they can stay in the backcourt for the entire shotclock. The 10 count forces the team to get the ball over halfcourt by 10....which, if they can't, gives the defense an opportunity to force a turnover. It reduces the size of the court the offense has to work with. Take away the 10, and you shift the balance of play a little more in favor of the offense. You could certainly debate whether that is a good thing or not or even whether the effect is enough to even matter.

I'd agree with this.....regardless of the reason or excuse.

I don't agree with getting rid of the 10 second count. If you have a shot clock I actually believe we should make it a hard count like the NBA rather than start a new count if the ball goes out of bounds or the coach/player buys his team out of a violation and calls for timeout.

You are really upset by this?

I hope when those come to watch your games they can see any little thing you do not call (by there standard).

Peace

This Guy Has Got It Down Pat ...
 

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/R5aDgXJ_RnQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

O......M........Goooooooooodddddddddd!!!!!!!

Peace

BillyMac...this is the one time I'm glad you actually posted a video. I thought we had lost that gem of a video forever whenever the uploader made it private. :D

This video just made my Friday morning.....!:)

Today's Lesson Class: The Not Closely Guarded Signal ...
 

It's educational, how to properly execute the not closely guarded signal.

Absolutely!
 

Especially when the players are about 10-15' apart. But, he gets right on it when they get close doesn't he?!

Thanks for sharing.

The people who attend games and yell "3 Seconds" beg to disagree.

He is a clown. Were I in his association I would block him. I would not want to be on the same court with anyone working so hard to draw attention to himself.

I agree with you that 6' closely doesn't seemed to be monitored with the same dilegence we are asked to do at the HS level.

But apparently the NCAA is not too concerned with this particular call as I've never seen it emphasized at any college-level venue I've been a part of.

It's definitely an exercise in what NOT to do. I'd probably be weary if I had to work a game with an official as...umm..."individual" as such.

Who said anything about being upset? It's an observation, not about one official, but about NCAA M officials across the board, leading me to conclude that it must be specifically discouraged at that level. I've never heard that, thus my post. Some appear to agree.

In no way am I trying to speak for the officials working the tournaments, but what I was always instructed to do was to not have a CG count unless there was active guarding going on...in other words, just because there is a member of the other team standing there within 6 feet, does not mean we have a CG count. Many of the situations I have seen in the tournament would fall into that category.

I am late to this thread but:

NFHS and NCAA Men's: six (6) feet while dribbling or holding the ball in the Front Court (FC).

FIBA and NCAA Women's: three (3) feet while holding the ball anywhere on the Playing Court (both Front and Back Court). Note: BC = Back Court.

The NCAA Women's rule was a FIBA adoption holdover from the NAGWS Rules. FIBA has continued to have the rule apply to the entire Playing Court even after it adopted the Ten Second Backcourt Rule (subsequently reduced to eight seconds when the NBA/WNBA went to eight seconds); the Ten/Eight Second Back Rule is a fairly recent adoption by FIBA.

Regarding both NFHS and NCAA Men's I would rather see the rule be three feet while holding the ball only in the FC.

MTD, Sr.


History Lesson: NAGWS stands for the National Association for Girls and Women in Sports. This organization still exists and use to right the rules for many sports played by girls and women at the high school and college level. The NAGWS Basketball Rules were the precurser to the NCAA Women's Basketball Rules Committee.

The Spread Arms Mechanic
 

The Spread Arms Mechanic is the dumbest mechanic/signal in all of sports.

When I first learned the profession of officiating basketball (in the ancient days), the first thing I was taught is that you have nothing until you have something.

If an official is waving his arm in a counting manner it means that he does have a Closely Guarded Situation; if he is NOT waving his arm in a counting manner it means that he does NOT have a Closely Guarded Situation.

I have not ever used the signal in all of my years as a college and high school official. I remember the first year the the NCAA Men's/Women's Committee adopted the mechanic. I was officaiting a women's game and a HC wanted a Five Second call and during a TO wanted to know why I didn't spread my arms to show I didn't have a CGS. I told him that I visually count when I have CGS. If I don't have a CGS I won't be spreading my arms because I don't need to be visually counting. He gave me the deer caught in the headlights look and then the light bulb went on in his head (I don;t know who turned it on because nobody was home, LOL), and the replied that he understood what I was saying, which was as scarey thought.

MTD, Sr.

That goes for every no call/call :rolleyes:

Yep, the same concept applies to the incipid foul-tip mechanic on blocked shots.

Everytime I have a partner do that I ask him of he umpires baseball or softball? When he asks why I ask him if the catcher caught the ball for a foul tip. LOL

MTD, Sr.

Is Pope Benedict XVI Catholic ???
 

So what else is new?

It's a mechanic to convey information and I see absolutely no problem with it.

I don't have a problem with it so much as I see no real need for it. Have I used it? Yeah, when the defender was standing 6.1 feet away from the ball handler.

I like the signal...tells that coach that "Yes, you're defender is attempting to get a count and I see that, but in my opinion he's not close enough." A simple signal that takes all of one second, that can take care of a potential problem with a coach.

So in FIBA you can have 2 different counts going on at one time :eek:

I believe FIBA games use a shot clock and use that for the backcourt count.

+1

It's another tool to be used when needed. Informational signal.

Not Closely Guarded ...
 

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5303/...11094434_m.jpg

Optional signal in the IAABO Manual. Mandatory here in the Constitution State.

Yes.

MTD, Sr.

As I said before, you have nothing until you have something and if I am not doing anything it means I have nothing. Pretty easy way to convey information if you ask me.

MTD, Sr.

What 2 simultaneous counts could one official have in NCAA-W?

Never mind, I was watching the game and not paying attention to what I was typing. LOL, I am going to edit my initial response to your question.

MTD, Sr.

You don't believe in using official signals?

That's signal #12 in the NFHS rule book, in case you didn't know. Don't you think they maybe put it in the rule book for a reason?

You know what they say about old dogs and new tricks?

They're worth one in the hand.

Signal #12 in the NFHS rule book.

Stoopid IAABO monkeys want to make up their own damn rules.....:rolleyes:

Is it not optional in NFHS? If not, do you use it every time a player has the ball in the FC without a defender within 6 feet?

JR:

It is a needless (and stupid mechanic/signal). The question should be asked is: Why did the NCAA Men's/Women's Rules Committee adopt such a mechanic/signal?

The answer: Coaches complained that officials were not calling CGS violations when they (coaches) thought the violation should be called. In fact, the coaches thought that officials were not even payiing attention to the rule. Sooooooo, the Rules Committee adopted a mechanic/signal that officials could use to say to coaches: "See Coach, I am looking for CGS violations but there is no CGS right now." Finally, the NFHS adopted the mechanic/signal based upon the same logic that the NCAA used.

Apparentlly, coaches do not understand the concept if an official has nothing until something happens. Thus, the adoption of the mechanic/signal, first by the NCAA and then by the NFHS.

When evaluating officials, I could care less whether the official using the signal. And I am officating I do not feel the need to use it because if I am not using a visible count it means that a CGS does not exist. And that is why I tell a HC when he asks me.

MTD, Jr., knows not to use the signal, because if he does he has to walk home from the game. :D

MTD, Sr.

That was what I was thinking. How far away is far enough to not use it? Do we stand there with our arms straight out to the side the entire time a player is not within 6'?

I use it when it's obvious a player is attempting to get a count started or whenever the coach is wondering about one. Besides that, I'll use it when a player has successfully broken a count...especially late in the count.

Gee, I don't know. What do you think think the NFHS said about it?

From the NFHS 2007-08 Rule Book when the signal was first implemented....

A new signal (spreading of the arms) was added to the signal chart to communicate that a defender is not in a closely guarded situation. The new signal clearly communicates that the official is aware that the defender is attempting to obtain a closely-guarded count, but has not met the six-foot distance requirement or that the six-foot distance necessary for continuing the count has been broken. <font color = red>It is intended to be used as a means of communication and does NOT need to be used in obvious situations, such as when an offensive player speeds past a defender or when there is a significant distance between the ball carrier and the defender.</font>

It's pretty straight-forward imo. It's an informational signal that should be used when an official thinks it's needed. It's just another tool we can use if we want to. If you don't feel it should used in certain situations, then you just don't use it.

And here's one for MTD SR. right out of POE #1 in this year's rule book..."Personal interpretations of the rules have a negative impact on the game. Individual philosophies and deviations from the rules, as they are written and interpreted by the NFHS, negatively impact the basic tenets and fundamentals of the game." It's kinda funny to me that the officials working a Final Four championship game find nothing wrong with using the signal when they think it's necessary, but the MTD Sr.'s of the world refuse to use it.

And btw, I might be an old dog but I keep coming here to try to avoid being labelled a stoopid old dog. :)

But, no signal could mean (1) You have nothing, or (2) You're not paying attention. The signal tells the coach it's the former.

(Not that anyone here would ever be guilty of the latter. The signal is needed because of all the other officials out there.)

So you are saying it IS optional?

That seems like a lot of words to replace "optional."

Now, MTD's refusal to acknowledge it is a different story, but it really has nothing to do with IAABO. Or were you just being snarky on that one? I have a hard time recognizing old-dog humor sometimes with the iPod in my ears.

All nice and shiny...

Anyways, I like the mechanic. I've put it to good use and have heard more than a couple of times from a coach "See, I told you that you're too far back. Guard him!"

To say that a mechanic is optional is ambiguous between:
a) an official opting never to use the mechanic, and
b) an official opting to use it only occasionally when needed to communicate

I think you're using it in sense (b) and JR is rejecting sense (a). You're in violent agreement.

Perhaps, but I was responding to this exchange in particular.

The NFHS is clear in how they want the signal used. I already gave their issued reference for that. I have no idea whatinhell IAABO regards as being optional or mandatory, nor do I really care. If IAABO wants to issue their own exam, mechanics and rules interpretations, they're free to do so. It doesn't help non-IAABO officials though when they issue something that is completely contrary to what the NFHS has issued and goes against FED rules or doctrine.

Also as a general observation, I do think that sometimes you just have to referee the game and quit trying to micro-analyze every single facet of it. The usage of this particular signal is a prime example of that imo. It's no more or no less than exactly how the FED told us to use it when they initiated it.

JMO

I think that's how the NFHS directed all of us to use it when they initiated the signal. And I think I cited their words to that effect above.

The fact that the NFHS and NCAA has a signal for officials to use to say it is the former and not the latter is a sad commentary on basketball officiating.

I do my job, just like all of the other many esteemed officials who contribute to this Fourm on a regular basis, meaning, if I am not giving a visible count, I do not have a CGS.

The logic behind this signal is STUPID! Emphasis to officials that they need to get their heads out of their a$$e$ and officiate the game, and stop looking for cute moms in the stands, :D.

And now for something completely different. Yesterday I had my first rainout of the season.

MTD, Sr.

You know what is really a sad commentary on basketball officiating? You teaching your son the same antiquated, hide-bound conventions that you learned 30 years ago. Why not just let the kid form his own opinion of what should be done in today's game?

The game is constantly changing, Mark. Even the dinosaurs should try to make at least some kind of attempt to keep up with it.

JMO

I say we just take the dinosaurs and make more oil.

Stop being so dramatic. You started the post and I found it odd that you claim that the call was discouraged as if there was a mandate or something. First of all that is not the case, maybe they have different judgment than you do. That does not mean they completely ignore the call, as a matter of fact many have used the proper signals to suggest they do not have such a call to make. Again, judgment calls all the way and what you see on TV is not totally the same perspective you have sitting on your couch in your living room. Also those players are taller in many cases and they will appear to be closer than they really are or what we are used to working our HS games. You do not have to agree, but this is my take on it and no where have I not seen this properly started based on the judgment of the official. And college officials tend to be slower with starting a count than HS officials because they wait to see if the player is actually in 6 feet rather than starting a count when the player gets the ball.

Peace

Everybody knows oil came from plankton, not dinosaurs. Well, unless you're Thomas Gold and think the earth micturates oil. :D

JR:

What is the first rule of officiating any sport? ANSWER: You have nothing until you have something. Simple and to the point.

I am about as far as from being a conservative and one can be. BUT, that does not mean that I believe that something should be changed just to change it.

A good example of a rule being changed because officials were not enforcing the rule as written occured in the early 1980's. I think the 1980-81 school year was when the change was made and I am not going to climb up into the attic to check, :D. Prior to that school year, the rule defining when the players could enter the free throw lane during a free throw was basically the same for the NFHS and NCAA Men's as it is today for NFHS. Starting with that school year the NFHS and NCAA Men's changed the rule to what it is basically is today for NCAA Men's/Women's. The reason given by the two rules committees was that too many officials (and I am going to hang most of the blame on the men's college officials and the high school officials that emulated them) were not enforcing the rule as written therefore the rule was changed to reflect how far too many officials were officiating the game. The NFHS has come full circle and the free throw rule is the same as it was before the early 1980's.

MTD, Sr.

mbyron: kindly pi$$ off!:rolleyes:

Mark, I'm really surprised at you. This signal is a great game management tool. I know there are some idiotic coaches in the Toledo area. I've had a couple of them when they come east to play Cleveland teams.

One of the goals of game management is to keep a coach from ruining my night by complaining because he thinks his six foot ruler is longer than mine. By giving the sign, it keeps him quiet and me happy. Win-Win.

Mark, I guess I won't ask your opinion on the "That's nothing!" with a safe signal mechanic in baseball then.

I've had more issues with coaches who's ruler is shorter than mine, but I see the value of the tool. Even before we had it, though, coaches saw me swing my arms enough to know I was paying attention. They knew if I wasn't counting, their defender wasn't close enough.

Welpe:

I am not sure I understand what you are describing. I will say: "No catch!" on a trapped ball; "No tag!" on a play such as where R1 is being forced to 2B on a ground ball to F4 and F4 attempts to tag R1 and misses; etc. But I do not know why anybody would anybody say combine the "safe signal" with "That's nothing!" in baseball or softball for that matter.

MTD, Sr.

P.S. Not all coaches are as stupid as we think they are, you will be suprised at how many of them understand the concept that if an official is not showing a visible five-second count it is because there is not CGS and there is not need for the Spread Arm signal. As I have said before, when evaluating an official I could care less whether he uses the signal or not, you just are not going to see me use it ever.

MTD why dont you tell us how you really feel about it :D

R2. Batted ball to F6. R2 runs in front of F6 and the ball barely misses him.

Umpire should give the safe sign and say "that's nothing" to show he saw the play and judged no interference.

(one example of many).

Let's Do The Time Warp Again ...
 

There must be something wrong with my computer. When I log onto the Official Forum Basketball, I end up on the Official Forum Baseball.

Why don't you take that to the sex forum? :D

My six foot ruler is always longer that a coach's six foot ruler. :p

MTD, Sr.

And if I was evaluating an umpire, I would definitely mark that umpire down for NOT giving a safe signal / that's nothing in that situation.

Yes, it's an optional signal in basketball for not CG. But there are times when it's a perfectly valid signal to give. There are times when I will birddog, too (when there's a few defenders around and there's doubt on who committed the foul).

The only time to give the signal in the first place is when the count distance is not "clear" to everyone that is watching. All the official is doing is telling everyone "I do not have a count because the defender is not in the right distance in my judgment." A lot of times coaches complain when they think there should be a count. This just tells everyone why you do not. It should be used rarely in most cases when players are standing around.

Peace

What needs to happen
 

They just need to change it to 3 feet, holding the ball in the front court instead of 6 feet C/G for the men. Just my opinion.:D