Haven't found this on any of the threads, probably cuz it's so basic. (As will become obvious, I'm not a ref.)

True/False: As long as a player has at least part of one foot on the line (the rest of him stays in the key), there's no violation, forever.

True/False: The count starts over if the player is in the key and puts part of one foot on the line (and then goes back to camping).

Thx.

Shogun, with all due respect, neither of these are worth thinking about. A player has to have gained a pretty big advantage before 3 seconds is called. Standing on/near/close to the line is not what this rule is about.

Ques #1 = False

Ques #2 = False

But whether I call it or not also depends on where the ball is located, what the defender is doing, the level of play, what (if any) advantage is gained by the player that is violating, etc. I would try to keep from calling the violation by warning the player to get out of the lane. You're correct that this is a fundamental rule/concept...but administering this situation can get quite complex at the higher levels. All is not as it seems, grasshopper...

Okay, then...
 

I'm asking this for a coach friend who'd like to know the rule so he doesn't mislead his kids...

I understand that there will be situational variations that can be complex... but the basic question is, what do you need to do to reset the clock (or to avoid committing a 3 seconds violation)? Let's assume you're gaining a substantial advantage from your position. How much of you, technically, needs to be OUTSIDE the key to be safe? All of you? And is the line part of the key?

From Dan_ref's and rpirtle's replies (thx, btw), it's clear there's a lot of judgment involved. I'm hoping someone can distill it down to something simpler... something along the lines of this (which I just now made up and I'm sure is completely wrong, but was fun to write): "Technically, if one toe is on the line, you're 'in the key'... but you won't get called unless you're 1) gaining advantage and 2) at least half of you is in the key." Or something like that. Any takers?

Thx.

[Edited by Shogun on Dec 10th, 2002 at 12:06 AM]

Re: Okay, then...
 

The rule is that to be considered out of the key, and have the count end, you must have both feet touching entirely outside the key. And the line is part of the key. You can't just stand on one foot out of the key, lift the "in" foot, and then put it down again. That second foot must touch outside.

Also, 3 seconds doesn't start until the ball has front court status, and ends when a shot goes up. During rebounding action, no 3 second count should begin until there is team control, in the front court.

I'll let others argue about advantage/disadvantage, and the various interps used to effect the rule.

How about this take on 3 seconds. Comes from a college ref and he interprets for NCAA.

"There is only 3 seconds on the test" likewise there is only 3 seconds on an interrupted dribble on the test.

That ref is not going to call one in college ball and never has unless the player is trapped with the ball in the lane (that's what they say). That's at a higher level but he suggested it could be used at the lower levels.

Ronald,
I'm not a college ref, but that is the same thing I use.
I also may call a three second violation instead of an off ball foul on the offensive post player.
Of course, remember that I am out here in the backward state of Nevada!

WHAT?!? So the defender always gets called for a foul, but the poor post defender who gets fouled only gets a violation? I'd suggest you rethink that.

I'd also suggest another context where 3 seconds SHOULD be callded: if the post player is aggressively posting in the key (not hands on knees with a foot touching the line) and a defender is aggressively defending, 3 seconds should be called without a lot of slack. It's extremely difficult to defend a quality post player in the key for more than 3 seconds without fouling, and it is extremely ufair to a post defender to get called for a foul after playing solid defense in the key for 5 seconds against an aggressive post.

In my experience, 3 seconds at the MS/HS level gets called when a backside player falls asleep and stays in the lane for eternity. The only automatic 3 seconds I have heard of and seen called with regularity is when a player passes out of the lane and fails to clear the lane immediately after the pass. If you catch in the lane, look around, pass back out, and stay in there, you have been there more than 3 seconds and are gaining an advantage.

I've also got an automatic when I'm talking to them to clear, clear, clear and then they get the entry pass........... "tweet - 3 seconds, going the other way!"

Quote:

Ronald, I'm not a college ref, but that is the same thing I use. I also may call a three second violation instead of an off ball foul on the offensive post player. Of course, remember that I am out here in the backward state of Nevada!

Backwards indeed! Is it a statewide policy that your high schools do not use a shot clock? Are people still not over the end of peach baskets and balls with laces? j/k

;)

It is true that there is no shot clock for the boys or girls in Nevada HS basketball. That is statewide. It will take a state playoff game where one team holds the ball for half of the game before they will change this. BTW how did you know this?
PS When I was in MD we did have a shot clock in girls games.

Don't be so sure on the change. The coach at my HS (in Connecticut) won a state championship six years ago by doing this, and the state still doesn't have a shot clock rule.

How many states have a HS shot clock? Missouri does not.

No shot clock in WI

None in Kansas, don't really see it happening anytime soon either. To mention to schools the cost with the budgets being cut right now, they are not going to allow it.

We use the shot clock in Massachusetts

North Dakota has a shot clock in Class A, but not in Class B.

No shot clock in Minnesota. I don't foresee it in the future. The schools won't even think about going to three officials because of the cost. Haven't seen a team with the discipline to hold the ball for much more than a minute in the past couple of years. The kids are all toeing the three point line itching to pull the trigger. A small openining and they are all hoisting them up!

No Shot Clock in Alaska!

None in PA either!

No shot clock in Idaho. We have been trying for 3-man - our association even offered to raise the funding and pay for the 3rd official... coaches/Athletic board wouldn't go for it. Too bad!

We use a spud sack rather than a peach basket.

I retract my previous statement
 

Nevadaref,
After seeing the responses in this thread, and in your other thread, regarding the use of the shot clock in the other states of the Union, I apologize. I was under the mistaken ASSumption, that the majority of the states used the shot clock. I really should know better. I usually am good about not making assumptions, however, my habit of making sweeping generalizations sometimes gets me in trouble.

BTW, I knew that at least portions of Nevada do not use the shot clock, because I officiate in Northern California, and sometimes near the border, so occasionally I am working a game with a visiting team from Nevada that seems shocked that we use a shot clock.

Re: I retract my previous statement
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 4 Sport Official

Quote:

BTW, I knew that at least portions of Nevada do not use the shot clock, because I officiate in Northern California, and sometimes near the border, so occasionally I am working a game with a visiting team from Nevada that seems shocked that we use a shot clock.

Yes, it seems that only a handful of states do use a shot clock. What shocks me is that you guys do all your games with 2-man crews.
Also, I occasionally have games with California teams (tomorrow night I have Napa and Lassen) as Nevada is a very popular tournament site due to the parents desire to gamble. I make a point of telling these teams that since there is no shot clock here, there will be a 10-second count in the backcourt and that, unlike California rules, they can be called for a 5-second violation in the frontcourt while dribbling. This always draws looks of astonishment from the players and coaches.
I think that it is smart to know the rules of your neighboring states/areas so that you are aware of potential problems/misunderstandings that could occur with visiting teams.

Yes,
My association did have three officials for some of the larger, league games, during the regular season last year, but we have discontinued this practice, this year. I am not sure if it was because of the schools, and budget issues, or if it was decided by our section, but this year, we will only have two officials, on each game, until the playoffs.

I would also be interested to see if any other states use any similar rule variations between the boys and girls' games.

Boys - all counts
35 second shot clock

Girls - No 10 second backourt count
No 5 second count while dribbling
30 second shot clock

I believe it's only eight.

As for three-second violations, check local listings. In my neck of the woods, we enforce more of a literal translation of the rule. Still, if I see a post player in the lane for three seconds, and I see a genuine attempt to get out of the lane -- which is usually the case -- I will hold my whistle. And getting out means getting out -- both feet outside the lane.

You're about 9 years too late bainsey ;)

LOL!!! It happens to the best of us.

Peace

Sounds like my officiating career!

That's what I get for checking in on vacation and trying to play catch-up, not to mention posting from Grunewar's neck of the woods -- talk about being out of position!