Substitution

[Hawks Coach]

I, as coach of team A, substitute in 4 players and 3 immediately leave, while the 4th remains on the court and sets up in our press. Coach B and I both notice we have an extra player. I am calling my player off the court and Coach B is trying to get the refs' attention before play begins. Lead waves off Coach B, the trail gives the ball on the baseline to Team B's inbounder, and then the lead T's us up. While this seems like poor game management, I am also curious as to whether this is the right call. According to 3-3-1, our substitute became a player upon entering the court and the player subbed for became bench personnel as soon as the sub became a player. Where does it say how quickly they must leave the court, or whose responsibility it is to have them leave prior to the ball becoming live? Fortunately they missed both free throws, but I was a tad miffed. Don't worry, I held my tongue and threw no chairs - tho I must admit we were sitting on bleachers .

[Bart Tyson]

Are you saying the official knew you had 6 players on the court before the other official gave the ball to the inbounder? If so, then this is a no no on the official. To answer your ?, you have five legal players and one illegal player on the court. You just have one too many. The subs must leave the court before the ball is handed to the thrower-in. It is a cardinal sin on the officials to allow six players on the court during a sub. Yes, it is a T to allow six player during a live ball.

[Mark Padgett]

I've always been taught that, as an official, 99% of the time there is an extra player on the court, it's my fault. The only exception that is excused is if a player just runs on during play.

BTW - when I see a team coming out of a quarter break, a timeout or a multiple substitution with an extra player, I always move toward their bench and very loudly say, "Coach - new rule this year - you only get five!" It always gets a laugh.

[jackgil]

Coach -

Inexperienced refs (usually happens once and refs learn their lesson). Always take a count after subs and before handing ball to make it live. Hey, here's some good advice from a very successful HS coach (coaches DeMatha HS in Washington DC) - before start of game, talk to refs and tell them what happened in one of your previous games such as this one -- to kind of remind them to count the players so neither team gets a T...refs do listen to things like that.

Jack

[Hawks Coach]

quote:

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Originally posted by Bart Tyson:
Yes, it is a T to allow six player during a live ball.

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Where I get confused is in reading the rules on Ts. I find a "Substitute Technical" for either not reporting or for entering the court without being beckoned by an official (10-2-1 and 10-2-2), but since all of my players reported and were allowed on by an official, I am at a loss to vfind a technical for six players on the court. As for whether lead knew that we had six or it just sunk in when the ball was given to the inbounder, I am not a mind reader but it sure looked like he knew and waited til the ball became live to T us up. He was a nice enough guy and there was no acrimony in the game, so I see no reason why he would have done that. I also recognize that he may not have really heard what was said and it only sunk in after the ball became live and then he saw no choice but to T us up.

[Milan21]

I Agree.

[Brian Watson]

I don't care how silly I might look, but after each timeout, period, sub situation, or any other time where players may be coming on or off the court I count them. I don't give my partner thumbs up or hand the ball off until I know there are only 10 players on the floor. My first season I let a team inbound with only four players on the court. I learned real fast it was my job to check.
We don't, and may never know if the officials knew there were six on the floor, but it is absolutely reprehensible for an official to let the ball become live knowing there are six players on the floor. I try to prevent T's like a bad rash, why go looking for one?

[Bart Tyson]

Coach, I don't have the rule book with me. This isn't a rule, as officials, we waste our time to look up from time to time. We just know six players is a T. However, I bet (oops) there's that word again, I'm sure you'll find it's in the book somewhere.

[walter]

Bart is so right! Rule 10, Section 1, Article 6, "A team shall not have more than five squad members participating simultaneously." At every camp I've been to, there is always a lecture on counting the number of substitutes that come in and the number of players that go out to make sure they're equal. It has also been stressed to make sure you know what number the players are wearing that leave the court so they don't re-enter illegally. Dead ball efficiency. Both the lead and the trail in this situation should have taken a count prior to putting the ball in regardless of who beckoned the substitutes into the game. Both officials are at fault here. As for when a substitute becomes a player and when a player leaving the game becomes bench personnel, see rule 4, Section 34, Articles 1,2,3.

[Bart Tyson]

Walter, while I think your idea is good, I also think this would be cumbersome. Do you really get the numbers every time? Coach, I know one team has each player subing in carry a towel. they hand the towel to the player going out. works great.

[Hawks Coach]

Thanks all of you. I looked through the T section and missed 10-1-6 It does remain somewhat unclear as to who is responsible for making sure all players who have been subbed for leave promptly, or how promptly they must leave. For a fifth foul it is clear that the player immediately becomes bench personnel and the sub must come in within 30 seconds.

[Bart Tyson]

Coach, as officials we take responsibility for too many players on the court. However, technically it is everyones responsibility for proper subs. Common sense. Coach and player both want proper sub or it is a T.

[TwinSears]

I believe we have to look at the intent and not the letter of the rule.

With four players coming in, the player who remained was probably confused. However, the coach knew and was trying to get his player off the floor. Clearly his intent was not to play with six players or to confuse the other team as to who they were defending.

While it is not the officials duty to know who is being substituted for, it is the officials duty to count the players.

In this situation, if I were the other official NOT administering the throw-in, I would simply blow my whistle and hustle the confused player off the floor. No "T" was needed as it sounds like this was the officials error for not counting the players.

[refjef40]

i think twin sears has hit a three point shot! Exactly right on all counts.

[Rehuel]

Hawks Coach:
There are 5 players. The rest is bench personnel. According to the FIBA rules, the head coach is responsible for the actions of the bench personnel! So after sub-->player, player-->b/p, the coach will get t'ed if the sub'ed player is still on the court.

With that in mind I have to disagree with some of y'all.
THE OFFICIAL IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR COUNTING PLAYERS!!!!!
You CAN do it as ref, for the flow of the game, but no one can say that YOU are responsible for the not well performed substitution. Of course all players need enough time to enter and leave the floor!! As Mark Padget mentioned, I can tell a coach that he has 6 folks running, but if I'm not well positioned, and if the other team comes in a disadvantaged situation, it ain't my fault. The coach is ultimately responsible for the substitute. The Sub should call off his player. So, I can say something, but I DON"T HAVE TO!!!!!!!!!!

[This message has been edited by Rehuel (edited April 26, 2000).]