A1 goes to the floor for a loose ball. Before A1 is tied up for a held ball, she moves her feet but does not roll over or anything. In other words, she stays staionary on the floor except for her feet, is that a travel?

By the way, it didn't matter because A1 called a to before she was tied up! (bailed out)

Not a travel. Player did not get up, or gain an advantage by rolling over or "scooting" along the floor. Player cannot get up from floor unless he starts a dribble first.

Thanks. I knew the rule about not getting up but I had about 15 people (several coaches of other teams not involved as we were at a tournament) telling me after the game that it was a travel. Thanks for the info.

DSTURDY5
 

During my 1st yr of officiating basketball I found myself listening to everyone and their opinions of what the rule is/was... I ultimately found out that rarely did a fan have a clue what the actual rule was, some coaches/players had a vague understanding and most officials knew the rules.

Please note I said most officials. There are some officials that have not opened the rulebook since "Gee, I don't remember when..."

Bottom Line: Keep your nose in your rulebook and look for clarification here. It is the best way to learn/improve. I learn something about officiating just about everytime I read through the threads here.

Keep at it! :)

Truly, this is not well explained in the case book. As you have said it is explicitly stated that a player with the ball on the floor may not get up or attempt to get up. However, the traveling rule is based on foot movement. No where does it say that this rule is not in effect for a player who is on the floor. It is likely that the restriction about not getting up is intended to be in addition to the normal traveling rule, not to replace it. I believe that if you go strictly by the book, your play would be a travel if the player moves his feet in any way other than is allowed by this rule. Of course, 99.9% of officials are not going to make this call. So it is probably only important for a written exam.

I guess I would have to say did the player establish a pivot foot from the floor? Traveling has quite a bit to do with the pivot and I don't see her establosihing one clearly in this situation. NO CALL.

Pivot foot restrictions do not apply to a player who is sitting, kneeling, or lying on the floor. The rule biook simply says he can't attempt to get up.

4-43-5
A player holding the ball:
After gaining possession while on the floor and touching with other than hand or foot, may not attempt to get up or stand.

Some people believe that when a player goes after a loose ball and in the process "SLIDES" on the stomach; that the sliding is traveling....but it isn't....once A1, on his/her stomach, has gained control of the ball....he/she can only start a dribble, shoot OR make a pass....once he/she turns over = a travel violation; if on the back...he/she can sit up...NO VIOLATION....casebook 4.43.5 Sit. B

...or request timeout.

BTW, nobody here believes that. ;)

..Or just hold the ball.:D

BktBallRef,
I politely and respectfully disagree. Please re-read my two sentences above and ponder my point for a moment. Every other rule of basketball is still in effect when a player has the ball on the floor. Why should the pivot foot restrictions not be?

BktBallRef,
I politely and respectfully disagree. Please re-read my two sentences above and ponder my point for a moment. Every other rule of basketball is still in effect when a player has the ball on the floor. Why should the pivot foot restrictions not be?
[/B][/QUOTE]Nevada,you can't apply pivot foot restrictions to someone who hasn't established a pivot foot in the first place.That's why the rule is written this way--to cover special cases.

P.S.- "I politely and respectfully disagree"?? I like that! Can I use it? Has a little bit more flair than "wrong,a$$hole".

JR,
With this quote I agree. I thought 4-43-5b was put in to tell us that it is still a travel if a player gets up even without moving an established pivot foot. Say the player is on one knee and then stands without moving the other foot. That is the special case that is covered.
Perhaps there was too much trouble with officials judging what was the pivot foot in the case of a player on the floor, so the rules committee just removed the judgement element and made it a travel in all cases where the players gets up.
Much like the evolution of disallowing a made basket on a PC foul.
I hear back in the day, even HS officials had to judge whether the shot was away before or after the foul and then either count or not count the basket. Some vets have told me that they feel the rule was changed to make it easier for the officials because too many of them were screwing this up.
As a vet, what are your thoughts on this?
Politely and Respectfully as always!

Perhaps there was too much trouble with officials judging what was the pivot foot in the case of a player on the floor, so the rules committee just removed the judgement element and made it a travel in all cases where the players gets up.
Much like the evolution of disallowing a made basket on a PC foul.
I hear back in the day, even HS officials had to judge whether the shot was away before or after the foul and then either count or not count the basket. Some vets have told me that they feel the rule was changed to make it easier for the officials because too many of them were screwing this up.
As a vet, what are your thoughts on this?
Politely and Respectfully as always!


[/B][/QUOTE]1)Re:the pivot foot on a player laying down--I think that you're right on this.Trying to judge when and if a pivot foot is established,and then whether it was moved,was leaving way too much judgement in the play for different officials to call.Harder than heck(:D) to call,and no guarantee of uniformity if it was called.
2)Yes,the high school rule used to be basically the same way as the NCAA men's rule is now(NCAA women's rule is the same as the present NFHS rule for airborne shooters).One of the reasons that the FED changed to the present rule was to take out the element of judgement.Too many officials were always counting the basket if it went,and then charging the shooter with a common foul(not PC)-no matter when the ball was shot or the foul occured.These officials figured that,if they called it this way,each team got something and neither coach would b*tch at them too much.

Yes, you are able.

But, are you willing? :D

Scott,I am full of class!

Unfotunately.most of it is second.

Nevadaref, 4-43-5b is the only traveling rule that applies to a player who is sitting, kneeling, or lying on the floor. Case plays are written to elaborate on this rule. Everything else in 4-43 applies to moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball and standing.

We must have different versions of the rules book. Mine has a period after "while holding the ball" at the start of section 43 and a colon following "holding the ball" in art. 5.

I guess your's says "and standing."

No, mine doesn't say standing and I wasn't quoting the rule. But every article under 4-43 addresses a player who is on his feet, either standing still or moving, except for 4-43-5b. The interpretation is not that difficult. There is no pivot foot while a player is not standing.

Yeah, and the interpretation is that there is an additional restriction for a player on the floor that he may not get up.

Nowhere in the rules book or case book does it say this.

Klassy. Real klassy. ;)

Maybe, but it is understood to read that way.

You're wrong,a$$hole!

Oops...

Damn,fell off the wagon again.

Tell ya what. You go ahead and make that call. Then you can justify it but saying, "Nowhere in the rule book does it say that." I'm sure it will go over fine.

I'm with ya BBRef
 

4-43 "Traveling (running with the ball) is moving a foot or feet in excess ..."

Can one of you classy, experienced, ding-a-lings explain how a player LYING ON THE FLOOR with both feet waving in the air, or both feet on the floor moving, or any oither pipe dream situation, possibly be called "RUNNING WITH THE BALL?"

A player lying on the floor with no change in location or pivoting due to foot movement equals NO TRAVEL for me.

4-43-1 through 5a. are for a player standing - this, standing, is the general mode in which we play basketball.

4-43-5b is the only rule discussing a player on the floor and is the only rule applicable to a player on the floor. "Gaining possession while on the floor and TOUCHING with other than hand or foot, may not attempt to get up or stand."

Touching WHAT with other than hand or foot? Obviously, touching the floor - therfore NOT STANDING.

Case Book Play 4.43.5
 

4.43.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control. A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without violating? Ruling: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball.
This clearly talks about what a player can do with control of the ball while on the floor on their back or stomach. There is no ambiguity here.

Thank you DTTB! Perhaps your explanation will sink a little better than mine did! :cool: