My partner from last night reported this. It happened in a game he had last week. In that game, my P was the ump. This is freshman girls, with under 4 minutes to go, and the game decided. One team (don't know if it was the team in the lead or not) puts in a girl with the same number as a girl on her team who has already come out of the game.

Ref whistles a 'T' for the duplicate number. The Ump, my P, is waiting to administer the shots and notices the Ref and coach are "having words." The ref refuses to let the girl come into the game.

The story is not quite finished as the parents of the girl are waiting in the parking lot and give both officials an earful about denying their daughter playing time.

With where the game was, my P says he would have let the girl play. Seems reasonable to me. Any other thoughts?

Any changes which are required to be made in the score book after the 10 minute mark prior to the game are charged with a technical foul. This would apply in the first quarter or the fourth. The fact that one team was significantly in the lead does not affect the rule. I don't see why the girl was not allowed to participate - all she would need do is switch jerseys.

U.P. here, we are generally told about duplicate numbers before the game. We mention it to the opposing coach, and we play on. I have never had the duplicate numbers show up on the floor at the same time.
Who cares?
Losers care... maybe.
mick

timing is off
 

Bard,
I don't have my rules book on me now (so I will check it later and reply again), but I believe the timing for this T was messed up. It is confusing when these T are penalized so some vets can step up here and help. However, I think illegal shirts/pants and numbers (such as 99) are only penalized if that player plays. But wouldn't a duplicate number be penalized at the 10 minute mark, since you would notice it when you checked the book? Of course, maybe this girl's number was listed as something else in the book.
Lastly, I think that going by the book, this little girl cannot play until she does change to a number that has not yet been worn in the game by one of her teammates.

Yes, it is in the case book 3.2.2 B part (b).
two Team B team members are wearing the same number. Ruling: a technical foul is charged to Team B upon discovery of the identical numbers. Only one team member may wear a given number; the other must change to a number not already in use before participating.

So that official got it right that she could not play while wearing that jersey. You'll have to explain why it wasn't caught earlier though.


[Edited by nevadaref on Dec 6th, 2002 at 07:49 AM]

Being the last player and having a different-style, same numbered jersey (because of number, because of a shade of color, or because of size) can be humiliating enough.
Let us not further humiliate the player by calling a technical foul and by bringing further attention to a difference, or a "sameness" that a player may bring to the game.

Is there an intent to deceive here? Don't think so.
So, now, let us look at the spirit of the rule....

mick

This problem usually stems from the lack of money. The uniforms for levels below varsity are usually hand-me-downs or a collection of older uniforms. In these tough economic times, what taxpayer wants to spend money on outfitting a basketball team. I think not letting a young player play because of a technical violation that they don't have any control over is wrong. Afterall, we are talking about a youth sport program here. Of course, this is all my personal opinion and not in strict compliance with the rules. Now the parents outside confronting the officials is another matter. They are upset that their child was not allowed to play due to an error they had no control of, but what gives them the right to confront the officials on their way to the car. This, I have a problem with.

Mregor

Is it so hard to tape over one number to make it legal?

Generally, one of those numbers is open. Issue the T for te book change, let her in, and play one.

We should look for way to let the kids play, not try to keep them off the floor.

Before someone gets upset with me, I should say that earlier I was just posting what the actual rule is. Of course, if I ever do a Girls Frosh game again I would completely ignore it. Just as I would 3 seconds, and many travels, and a lot of fouls.....

Gotta tell ya about a similar, less threatening, situation. This was a rec league game. Opponent had two players with the same number. Rec league, high school kids, no particular significance to the game, so no one made a big deal of it.

One of the kids was a real hot dog, and hurt his team throughout the game with ill-advised shots, passes, etc. He was regularly taken out because of dumb plays and foul trouble. Finally, in the 4th quarter, he fouled out.

As he walked off the court, he was openly whining. Finally, he says, "I can't have fouled out. I think you were giving all of the other 23's fouls to me!"

Probably funnier if you were there. It definitely was funny if you were.

Brian gets the gold star for today. Jeez, it's a Freshman girls game! (PA Coach, notice the emphasis is on "Freshman" and not on "girls" :) ). The point of these games is to get the kids into the game, so that they can get better and progress to JV and maybe V. Let them play! Let them play! Let them play!

Chuck

Does "Freshman girls" = "Freshwomen"?

Freshpersons?
People of Freshness?

Nice game management
 

Mick.... You stated very well, my attitude about this!

Mregor ... Your post is "right on", as well. Nice job gentlemen.

I don't like this one. It sounds too much like the TV commercials that I can't stand to watch.

Chuck

I will concede that I still call it "man-to-man" defense, and to "find your man", "box out your man", etc. I just can't say "woman-to-woman" defense, or "girl-to-girl". I do know of one coach that calls it "person-to-person" which cracks me up. :D

Tsk. tsk !
 

PA Coach,
You may have now offended <B><I>both</B></I> of the politically correct officials registered with the NFHS.
mick

How about 1-on-1 D? Or maybe call it "straight up" D? We used to have a couple variations on our man-to-man defense, but when we didn't use one of the variations, we called it "straight-up man".

Chuck

Let her play. Participation is the key at this level. Common sense says alter the uniform number with tape.

You've got to be kidding me!
 

This situation definitely falls under the common sense interpretation of the rules. When you have duplicate numbers below the varsity level, the jerseys will usually be different shades of the color or have some distinguishing piping, etc. Any official that would contemplate a "T" for this situation needs to take a "time out". There are many J.V. games where some of the varsity subs are playing with varsity uniforms and the J.V. uniforms will be different. I have hasd as many as three duplicate numbers in the book. Common sense calls for them to be differentiated by varsity 23 and j.v. 23 when reporting a foul. This all comes under game management as officials. Through proper game management alot of things that make us look bad as officials can be avoided. In warmups and when you are checking the book, you can ask the coach if the two numbers will be playing at the same time. Alot of the time, they won't be. If they are, talk to the scorer and tell them what you will be distinguishing the players as. To not allow a player to play, when they are eligible, is a travesty of the game and a black eye to officiating.
I'm sorry I rambled on but this case really got to me.

"Keep 'em straight up!"

I was working a tournament earlier this week, which was J.V. boys and J.V. girls (alternating games, seperate brackets). One of the boys only brought his road jersey, and was the only one on the team that did so. Because of this his entire team had to wear their road (red) shorts, and the coach made the offending player borrow a home jersey from one of the J.V. girls. These were the short girls jerseys with the little split at the bottom on the sides that are not made to be tucked in, plus it was in a size to fit a fifteen year-old girl. This caused a duplicate number, but I asked the coach, who said that the other player with that number was not likely to play, and, obviously, never at the same time. The other coach did not have a problem with this, especially since this was the 1-seed v. 8-seed game, but the real point here was that one of the starters, who played most of the game, had to wear this tiny, effeminite jersey. This was only by his own fault, which allows us all to laugh. I refrained from reporting fouls on "white, girls, five zero". I did notice a people taking pictures during the game, maybe he will make the yearbook. :)

It just goes to show, that when you assume, you have to wear a girls jersey.

Dwindling budget in youth sports is not uncommon in a lot of the country.....We talk a lot about preventative officiating.....Hmmmmm......what about preventative coaching, it seems several threads in the past week have dealt with more the Administrative side of the sport, ie. religous headware, cerebral palsy and a brace, duplicate numbers.....Many of these things could be taken care of either way before the games (as for letters from the state). Duplicate numbers....telling the official before game time so it can be discussed with both coaches.....Why is everything put on the officials calling the game....we are made out to be the bad guys or to remain politically correct Bad girls! A little preventative medicine all boths sides can go a long ways!

AK ref SE

Me2!

Point to ponder
 

Andy Rooney-like...

"Have you ever noticed.... (pause for effect) that the active coaches in this forum are girls' coaches?"

I think one-on-one works great. For "find your man" (which in a girls' game sounds like a Tammy Wynette song!) use, "D- up!" For those pesky undefended lay-ups by the opponent, yell, "Who's on #17?" rather than, "Whose man is that?" It has nothing to do with PC. It's just basic respect. Oops, that sounds a little testy. I'll get off the soap box now.

boys and girls
 

When I saw the PC terms of woman-to-woman defense and a coach yelling "get you girl" posted on this board, it made me harken back to my one and only coaching experience.
I was a 17 year-old HS kid and my little sister was playing in a girls summer league. They had just finished 8th grade and were entering HS in the fall.
They lost their first game by 20+ and their coach yelled at them after the game and walked out with just under a minute to go in the game. The parents who were there were quite upset by this and unanimously decided they didn't want him as coach anymore. Call it a case of parental firing. So my dad volunteered to take over. Sadly, he didn't have a clue about basketball, so he naturally turned to me.
Not being very sensitive to boys/girls issues at that age, I may have approached the situation incorrectly, but I decided to treat them as basketball players and not girls.
We spent the first half-hour of the next practice just talking about who I was what I thought we should do to win. I said we would play like my high school BOYS team. Man-to-man D, press, run, foul hard, push people, grab jerseys here and there, etc. (I got ejected/DQ'd for fouls many times from HS games. Stunning that I am now an official isn't it?)
I brought some of my friends to practice and we showed them how to box out, use a drop step, and play physically. Essentially, we took the ball made them hit and foul us to get it. I never used girls terms or treated them in any way differently than I would have a team of boys.
Anyway the point is that the girls loved it. They didn't care that I told them to find their MAN after we scored, or that I diagrammed plays to get the ball to our post-MAN. They were competitive individuals who wanted to win. They were too young to care about political correctness. A few times after games I heard them proudly tell their friends from the other teams that the reason we beat them was that we run boys plays. My treatment of them had earned their respect and instilled some self-confidence and pride.
So next time you are concerned about PC terms on a basketball court remember that those you are dealing with may not care, so why should you. Kids perceptions are often funny, quite possibly by changing BASKETBALL terms to make them appropriate for girls we may be sending negative messages these youngsters. They may perceive that because they are girls they can't play the same game, or that they aren't any good. While I don't expect many girls to beat boys in athletics, I see no reason to put this in their young heads.

To conclude I'll just add a bit about how that season ended:
After 8 weeks of these physical practices in which we spent time diving for loose balls, fouling instead of giving up easy lay-ups, and playing "hands-on" defense, we found ourselves at 10-2 and playing the same team they had gotten thumped by in week one, prompting their coach to exit, for the league title.
It wasn't even close. This time we won by 20. I have never seen a group of young girls so excited. They really were jumping on top of each other and screaming. Of course at my age that made me just want to cover my ears and run away!
The Friday we had a team pizza party and they gave me a little red plaque. The top line said "Hawks Coach" then it had my name under it and at the bottom was "You're the Best! Thanks for making us basketball players." I still have it. (So we might have more in common than just rules knowledge, HawksCoach!)
Four years later, I came home from college for spring break and a couple of my buddies and I went to the HS state tournament. We sat in the first couple of rows and ate popcorn, hotdogs, and of course, booed the officials. After the 4A girls game we were sneaking out the players/coaches exit because it was much closer to where we had parked when three girls from the winning team came down the hallway towards us. One of them stunned me by remarking "Hey!" grabbing me in a big hug and planting kiss on my cheek. It turned out that they were three of the players I had on that summer team. Apparently, I hadn't changed much since they recognized me, but from 13-14 to 17-18 they sure had grown-up and I couldn't have picked them out of a line-up. They told me that they had "been really good" ever since I coached them and that they still ran some of "my plays" and had even convinced their HS coach to put the "fouling drill" into practices. I didn't know what to say other than congratulations as they were back-to-back state champs.
If I were to coach again, I think I would do it the same way.
Thanks to all who read this for letting me share.

....what's happening to "MAN"kind these days?....
....we're all hu"MAN"s here....

Dude

P.S. I had to go back in and edit my response...I had not yet read NevadaRef's story when I posted my silly "MAN" stuff.
NR...I agree with mick, your story is one for the ages!
Turn that story in to Hollywood...It would be right up there with "Hoosiers"... ;)
Good job re-telling it!



[Edited by RookieDude on Dec 7th, 2002 at 08:27 PM]

Re: boys and girls
 

Great story, Nevadaref !!!
Thanks.