It was my understanding that any kind of headware for religious reasons had to be approved by the state associations.

Any feedback on this would be appreciated.

Rule 3-5-2 Exception 1b. <li>State associations may on an individual basis allow a player to participate while wearing a head covering if it meets the following criteria: For religious reasons - In the event there is documented evidence provided to the state association that a participant may not expose his/her uncovered head, the state association may approve a covering or wrap which is not abrasive, hard, or dangerous to any other player and which is attached in such a way it is highly unlikely it will come off during play.

I would be very hard-pressed to not allow a head covering for religious reasons as long as it does not pose a threat to any players on the court. The key is safety.

Since the rules state that state associations may approve it I would be hard pressed as an official to allow it if the player did not have state association approval. My feelings are that if I were to allow it without this approval and if something happend then I am puttng myself in a difficult situation.

Leave this alone.
 

Unless you have some information specifically from the state and even then I would be careful on telling a player not to wear something that had religious significance. I know of a girl that last year was Muslin in our state and had gray pants and a head scarf to represent her Muslin faith. State allowed it and she wore it all year.

Peace

I would think that this would be taken care of prior to the season being started in most cases. I would be very careful in telling someone to take it off. I would inform the coach to get something from the state, and I would be calling the state on the next business day.

AK ref SE

The situation happened in a freshman boys game yesterday. I explained the rule to the coach and even showed him the rule book. His school is from a different association. he told me they said it was ok.

I certainly would not tell someone to take something off if they couldn't, but I told the coach the player could not play with it by rule. To say the laest he wasn't too happy. His team did win the game.



My reasoning was; Since I had nothing in writing in the form of a state approval I was not going to take it upon myself to allow it. If something were to happen, an injury, no matter how unlikely, than I put myself in a very tenuous position. I also had to work the first three quarters alone. No one showed up. I didn't even have someone to discuss it with. Finally, there seems to be a lack of coaches knowing what the rules are and taking the necessary steps to care of situations like this.

A concern at the varsity level would be if no approval was granted and the lcoal association allowed it all season what would happen if the team made the playoffs and oher officials were involved.

I would hope the coach takes action today to take the necessary steps to get approval.

What kind of head covering was it? Was it dangerous?
Z

Without something written, I would have strongly requested the opposing coach's approval and then allowed the player to participate.
If you see no danger, then let the kid play.
The spirit and intent of the rules is not to sit a kid for religious reasons without something in hand.

What if the coach had said, "I have it in writing, but I am sorry, I don't have it with me."

Dangerous"

Probably not, unless it were to come off in a loose ball/ rebound situation. One problem I have and I am all for kids playing, is that coaches need to take care of details.

The proper way to have ahndles this as a coach is to hve taken care of this and then approached me and shown me the state approval. Then, obvioulsy we have no problem.

In my opinion, this coach would not have said I have it, but forgot it. He didn't know the rule. In this situation you make mutiple copies, keep one with you, put one in the med-kit, tape one in the scorebook. You know you have a special situation. You are prepared for it.

I don't belive it is my job to deny that the rule is there just to be nice to the player. Did I personally like having to do it. No. It has bohered me.

I have written my state association rules interpreter to get some clarification from them. Obviously I would not want a repeat of this and would like some specific guidelines on what steps to take in the future. When I get a response I will share it here on the board.

While I agree the coach should be proactive and have a copy with them at all times, I think a little common sense also applies. Suppose you have a game involving a private school catering to Orthodox Jews. Are you going to make the team forfiet if the coach forgot the paper from the state?

The assumption here seems to be that the state would ordinarily deny such a request. Given our current society I feel you can safely assume the state would need a reason to deny. A local (North TX) judge recently ruled that a pentagram worn by a Wiccan (sp) was a religious emblem, and thus could be worn to class and was not a violation of the schools dress code.

Let 'em play. Sure, the head covering may fall off and pose a possible safety hazard. But then, a light bulb over the court could explode causing shards of glass to fall on the floor...we don't play in the dark with a glowing ball. The building could catch on fire...but I don't remember seeing a fire unit on standby.

Hmmm,
 

I think some of you have missed the point of 'why' the rule is in the books.

As times change we are faced with interesting decisions. The National Federation of High Schools reacted at first to the 'head covering issue' when problems were occuring in the large metropolitan areas of players wearing "do rags".

The NFHS reacted by out-lawing all types of head covers.

It had NOTHING to do with the safety 'during' the game but had everything to do with safety 'outside' the game.

We now fast forward a few years and there are several religious groups that require head coverings (some 100% of the time others during specific times) so the NFHS ruled that the state (and only the state) could make 'individual' decision on players and the right to wear a head covering.

So we, that is the royal reference to OFFICIALS, are again directed to make sure that there is PROOF that the ruling has been made.

So as an official you have to make one of two choices:

1) Follow the letter of the rule and ask for documentation that apporval has been given or,

2) Make your own decision that there is enough evidence that you strongly believe that it is agreeable to allow the head cover.

Let me make one thing perfectly clear --

There has been no LEGAL challenge to not allowing the head gear. Officals, in a court of law, are expected to abide by written rule. Therefore there has been no legal finding holding an official at fault for following the predescriped rules.

I do not think there is an 'easy' answer to this question (we get the same question and have a like rule in FED baseball) and I do believe this is some thing worth time of discussion at your local association meeting.

A very well-thought out reply. I will be bringing this up at the next meeting.



It will be interesting to see additional feedback on this issue.

caref,
Yes, I do not disagree with what you are saying.

The coaches shouldn't put us in those positions by their ignorance, or arrogance, but they do give us that yoke.

When they do, we use our experience, knowledge and sometimes "gut feeling" and make a decision for which we are willing to take the heat.

Whether we follow a rule to the letter and get applauded,
whether we very liberally interpret a rule and get chastised, or whether we just disregard a rule and are never confronted, we make decisions with which we are willing to live.

At sub-varsity levels,
I do not make a fat kid tuck in her shirt.
I do not make a big kid wear the identical jersey of his teammates.
I do not "T" an excited sub that forgets to report.
I do not "T" a squad of 24 jr. High players with illegal numbers.
I do not penalize any wrong color of T-shirts under team jerseys.

These are decisions which I typically decide to bear. Why?
Cuz it doesn't bother me to allow these illegal actions and equipment.

To paraphrase Rut, do, or don't do, according to the cusomary practices in your area, but don't be the only official to enforce a specific ruling, because of the rules.

Your gut told you that something was wrong with the picture; sometimes that's the only answer we have.

mick

I disagree with this philosophy. Frequently I am the only one who is right when the rest of the world is wrong.

Just ask Juulie.

Caref, I don't think you told us what the kids were wearing.

That aside, all you folks that are worried about getting
sued should think about this: if a player has a religous
obligation to wear an article of clothing and you deny him
entry to the game then you are in fact discriminating on
the basis of religion. As such you open yourself and your
association to federal prosecution. All it takes is
one coach who happens to know one creative DA...or even
worse he might know a newspaper reporter looking for
something to fill a column with. And this is much bigger than any civil case will ever be.

Bottom line, let the kid play. If it seems weird, inform
the opposing coach. Almost all coaches will not have a
problem with it, unless the head dress in question happens
to sit on top of a 6'8" 245 lb baskeball machine. :)

WrongO
 

You and your association are expected to follow WRITTEN rules.

Dan, just quote me ONE legal proceeding that your answer is supported by and I will start new research.

NOT ALLOWING the player to participate would be a correct application of the written rule (FED has already sent this through THEIR legal) IF YOU ALLOW the player to wear, say, a "do rag" because he claims it is "religious in nature" and there is a fight over the color of the RAG then YOU would have a greater liability if you did not have documentation.

Please research things before you give legal advice, that is all I ask.

Re: WrongO
 

I would start here, I assume you know about google if you need more.

http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/crim/faq.htm

Specifically:

Q. What are the differences between a civil and a criminal civil rights violation?

A. A criminal violation requires the use or threat of force. Other distinctions between criminal and civil cases brought by the
Government are:

CRIMINAL
CIVIL
Who is charged:
Accused person
Usually an organization
Standard of proof:
Beyond a reasonable doubt
Preponderance of evidence
Fact finder:
Jury
Judge
Victim:
Identified individuals
Individuals and/or representatives of a group or class
Remedy sought:
Prison, fine, restitution, community service
Correct policies and practices, relief for individuals
Govt's right to appeal:
Very limited
Yes


Criminal cases are investigated and prosecuted differently from civil cases. More and stronger evidence is needed to obtain a criminal
conviction than to win a civil suit. Should the defendant be acquitted, the Government has no right of appeal. A federal criminal
conviction also requires a unanimous decision by 12 jurors (or by a judge only if the defendant chooses not to have a jury). Civil
cases are usually heard by a judge, but occasionally a jury will decide the case. Both criminal and civil cases can be resolved without
a trial where both sides agree and with the concurrence of the judge; this is done by a plea agreement in a criminal case and by a
consent decree in a civil suit. In criminal cases, judges must use the Federal Sentencing Guidelines in determining the defendant's
punishment, whereas judges in civil suits may or may not adopt remedies as recommended by the Government when it wins.

Q. If there is no violence or threat of violence, whom should I contact?

A. If no violence is involved, complaints should be submitted in writing to the Civil Rights Division, where it will be forwarded to the
appropriate Section for review. The Division's mailing address is:

Civil Rights Division
U.S. Department of Justice
950 Pennsylvania Ave., NW
Washington, D.C. 20530

Of course, I'm not a lawyer but I am bright enough to know
that the federal government holds a bit more power than the
NFHS or even the NFHS legal dept. As for do-rags, any idiot
can claim a do-rag is a religious article, and any idiot can
introduce it into an argument concerning the legitimate
wearing of religious articles. Only an idiot would not see
it for what it is: a red herring, a tactic to muddy the
waters in an otherwise simple question, so I will not
entertain any more questions related to do-rags.

If you choose to prevent kids from participating in an organized sport due to their religious beliefs and the
legitimate expression of those beliefs then more power to
you. If I'm the father of such a kid then I'm going to
the DOJ and I'm going to have a lot of questions.

Yes, Dan, experience is our guide.
 

The determination of allowance of certain clothing, we can tell from experience, can be made based upon the following guidelines without first having written approval:
<li> If the clothing is similar to what the fans are wearing.
<li> If you are told the clothing is legal and you have a gut feeling it may be.
<li> If the clothing is so strange, it is obvious a kid wouldn't wear it unless he/she had to wear it.

If we have a lingering question, after the game, we can always contact others to see is the item was legal or not.
If it matters to us, we may ask questions, file reports, make phone calls, express our concerns ex post facto.

Yes, Dan, your experience with game management skills shows by allowing the kids to play and not worrying about the paperwork at game time makes the same sense as not checking birth certificates when an opposing coach suggests there is an ineligible player on the other bench.

Good job!

mick

Re: Yes, Dan, experience is our guide.
 

Gee,mick,does that mean that Dan is
http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/STARWyoda.gif
Or maybe even
http://www.gifs.net/animate/einstein.gif

Actually,people who have seen him referee say it's more like
http://www.gifs.net/animate/clown__1.gif

I am at a loss
 

Dan:

I really don't understand one thing you have listed in your "research" post.

My point remains the same.

Please note that I have not commented on if I would aloow or disallow the head wear.

My point remains the same . . . there has never been a legal case finding an official in fault for going by written rules. Please show me ONE case wear an offical was successfully (hell, or even unsuccessfully) held legally responsible when they followed the rules, Please Show Me!

And Dan over many years I have worked players in Jewish league and teams, I have worked games with Mennonites, I have worked all types of religious organized tournaments and have never had an issue with any type clothing.

What would you do,Tim?

Re: Re: Yes, Dan, experience is our guide.
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Quote:

Originally posted by mick Gee,mick,does that mean that Dan is http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/STARWyoda.gif Or maybe even http://www.gifs.net/animate/einstein.gif Actually,people who have seen him referee say it's more like http://www.gifs.net/animate/clown__1.gif

Yes, JR,
That is Dan.
Same barber.
Has to eat a lot of soap.
Likes to garden.

Hmmm,
 

Let me put it this way:

You come out to work an "inter-city" game. It is a varsity game between two rivals.

You look at the court and you see a few players wearing different types of "head wear".

The first kid walks up and says, "Hi My name is Mustafa Boomshea, I am Jewish and I will me wearing my yarmulke tonight. Now we don't have a letter but my dad said if you don't let me wear it we'll sue you."

The next kid walks up and says, "Hi my name is Myron Weinberg, I belong to the "Church of the Street" and I will be wearing a stocking cap tonight. Now we don't have a letter but my dad said if you don't let me wear it we'll sue you."

The next kid walks up and says, "Hi my name is Luis Gonzalas, I am a Muslim and I will be wearing this white turbanlike head gear. Now we don't have a letter but my dad said if you don't let me wear it we'll sue you."

And finally the last kid walks up and says, "Hi my name is Tim O'Connor, I am an Methodist but my church is honoring a member so I will be wearing this red handkerchief on my head tonight. Now we don't have a letter but my dad said if you don't let me wear it we'll sue you."

So all of you "game managment" experts better do some serious convincing when you accept some and deny others.

The example is ridiculous but so is this discussion.

I agree.
 

Yes.
Indeed.

Re: Re: Yes, Dan, experience is our guide.
 

Funny. But I liked you better before you figured out how
to do these image/animation thingies. :)

BTW, I saw the latest Star Wars movie (Clone Wars or
something like that) on IMAX tonight, it was really great...
lots of action, great graphics, but if it had a plot I
missed it. There were all sorts of weird head dress in that
movie too, at one point I stood up and started screaming
"None of you guys can play! Get out of my movie!! Where's
your letter??!!" Is that a do-rag???!

My wife finally calmed me down.

Re: Re: Re: Yes, Dan, experience is our guide.
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mick

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee Quote: Originally posted by mick Gee,mick,does that mean that Dan is http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/STARWyoda.gif Or maybe even http://www.gifs.net/animate/einstein.gif Actually,people who have seen him referee say it's more like http://www.gifs.net/animate/clown__1.gif Yes, JR, That is Dan. Same barber. Has to eat a lot of soap. Likes to garden.

:)

Now,that's funny.Btw,you can rule on do-rags under headbands,instead of under religious head coverings.No problem taking care of them.

Boy, I wish I was a graphics whiz like some of you. But I do know something about civil rights.

The law will allow you as an official to refuse participation to a player with illegal head coverings. The law allows for reasonable restrictions on religious expression when they relate to the public safety. If a city's zoning law can prohibit a Catholic college from erecting the world's largest crucifix, as happened recently in Ann Arbor, MI, you can stop a player from wearing illegal head coverings.

The restrictions on headwear exist for player safety. Also, NFHS rules allow religious head coverings; all the participants need to do is document their case to the state association and obtain written permission. This procedure will eliminate the idiots that falsely claim their "do-rag" is a religious necessity.

Just follow the NFHS rules and you'll be ok.

Yep,
 

Atta Boy, Stanley.

Right on target. And with KNOWLEDGE.

Questions to those guys who work in East Coast cities with Jewish schools: do these schools belong to the state associations and follow NFHS rules on head coverings? Do they have some sort of blanket permission for wearing yarmulkes and how they must be attached? I'm curious because a local Jewish high school just joined our state association and will be competing this season.

Re: Hmmm,
 

Amen.

The rule is straightforward, don't know why everyone is trying to put a spin on it. In the state of Washington, you need to have a letter. No letter, no play with the "illegal" items. Coach doesn't have to like it, but any respectable coach would understand.

Curious about what? According to your way of thinking these
kids need a letter from the state approving their way of
dressing on the court. What difference does it make to
you how we do things on "the East coast"?

I do some games at the local Jewish Center. the kids where their elligious head gear with which I have no problem. thies ae kid games and not high school games. But I do worry about the metal clips they use to hold the headwear on. If girls used these metal clips in their hair I would have them removed. evfen with thes clips the hats come off during the games. so far no injuries but the clips do worry me. At this level I am letting it pass but, What would I and you do if someone wore thes clips in a regualation High school game.

Err Dan,
 

I'd swear you're pouting.

I thought his question was respectful enough that it could be answered.

I'm with BJ here, the rule is...

these kids can play, with a letter. There's no discrimination here, except that the Fed has "discriminately" allowed some players to have an exception to a rule under certain circumstances.

If this was the first game where the kids were new under Fed rules, I might consider letting them play, and then following up the next day with the state ... they'd better have a letter by the next game. But I would definitely call my commissioner before that first game, to be sure I was covered.

Curious about what? According to your way of thinking these
kids need a letter from the state approving their way of
dressing on the court. What difference does it make to
you how we do things on "the East coast"?

I'd like to know what your state associations allow and don't allow.

Is a Viking war axe illegal... it's been blessed?
 

You guys are having so much fun.... thought I might join in.

Safety???

What kind of head gear is unsafe? Is that like "I'm of Nordic descent and my Dad told me I had to wear this Viking war helmet with the horns sticking out each side... or I'm going to sue you."

Hi Tim ! Good to hear your words. Completely ridiculous is correct.

Can't offer anything regarding Jewish schools, but a couple of years ago I had a MS girl's game at a Saudi Arabian academy (northern VA area) and at least half of the girls wore the head covering and long pants -- regular tops, but with a T-shirt underneath. I let all of them play. BTW, I had to show my driver's license at the door (security reasons), and they kept it until the game was over. Actually a pretty good one-man game and it paid $60.00!

Re: Is a Viking war axe illegal... it's been blessed?
 

I'm not sure whether you're being sarcastic here. The rule book is very clear, and doesn't talk about any judgement or discretion required.

Kids can wear religious headgear only with a letter from the state association. Period. All other headgear is illegal. Period. If you're working for a different association that's not using Fed rules, fine, then use your discretion. In Fed games, why aren't you using Fed rules?

Re: Re: Is a Viking war axe illegal... it's been blessed?
 

A little kid with glasses shows up with a kippa.
He keeps looking and smiling at his grandparents in the stands.
They came a long way to see him play.
You ask for a letter.
Coach forgot.
If you sit him, I'm surprised.

Re: Re: Re: Is a Viking war axe illegal... it's been blessed?
 

I have to retract my previous stance of "let 'em play". I brought this up at our chapter meeting last night and the position we must take is No Letter, No Play...PERIOD, NO EXCEPTIONS. Also, the headwear may not be secured with metal clips.

So, in the situation with the little kid with a kippa, smiling at his grandparents...I hope they enjoy their time together before and after the game because they will be unable to see him play if he refuses to comply with the rule.