Some weird situations and a general Q about training

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by dfscott

During our recent rec league basketball finals, we had 3 crazy situations, all within the last 2 minutes of the game. I dug around on the internet looking for answers to these, but I couldn't find anything definitive (only armchair referee opinions). You guys were able to help me last time, so I'm hoping you can bail me out again!

These are 4th-6th graders, but the rules are loosely based on NCAA rules (our head official knows those rules but isn't as familiar with NFHS rules). One key difference is that we do not allow back court defense until there are 2 minutes left in the game. I want to get some opinions on these calls (not to protest, just to learn for next year - my wife is the league director).

1) With 1:50 left, A1 has in-bounded the ball to A2 after B's score. B1 attempts to steal the ball from A2 as soon as it is in-bounded, and the official blows the whistle just as B1 gains possession and signals illegal backcourt defense. The official then realizes the clock had ticked below 2 minutes so the back court defense is legal. She reverses her call, but gives the ball back to A to inbound, while the B coach argues that B should retain possession.

2) With ~30 seconds left, A1 is dribbling from center court towards the corner with B1 aggressively defending. A1 swings wide and the official on that side can't get out of the way quickly enough. A1 runs into the referee, falls, and loses the ball out of bounds. Referee rules that since it was his fault, A get the ball out of bounds. B argues that the player lost the ball out of bounds and it's the player's job to avoid the referees.

3) A1 passes to A2 just inside the front court with about 4 seconds left in the game. A2 then drops to the floor face down in the fetal position, covering the ball, letting the clock run out. Coach B argues that falling to the floor with possession should be an automatic travel. Coach A claims that even though A2's knees and arms were on the ground, his toes were still contacting the ground so he didn't move his pivot foot, thus no travel.

And it's not really a rules question, but I'll ask here anyway: what's the best way to get your refs trained? Sitting down and reading the rule book doesn't really prepare you for real game situations (not to mention, I could never get them to do it). I'm sure there are videos but I don't know which ones are good. Plus this is a church rec league, so I can't spend much money. However, I really think we need a bit more instruction than "put this striped shirt on and blow this whistle when you see something bad." It really helps to combat the boo-birds when your officials act like that know what they're doing.

1) This is not a NCAA or NFHS rule, so your local rule would apply, including how to handle errant cases. So what does the rule book for your league say? I interpret the perceived illegal defense to occur when A2 has possession. So I would give the ball back to A. My interp is akin to a coach asking for a TO, and before you whistle the play dead, B steals the ball. We grant the TO and still award A the TI, even though B had the ball at the time of the whistle.

2) B is correct. The officials are part of the floor. It should be B's ball.

3) Fed = travel. NCAA = ? ...... "Pivot toes" = LMAO

Training: Rules meetings. Then philosophy discussion. Then get refs to watch others work games with commentary from an experienced official. Get them to watch video too.

Edit: For the purposes of block/charge and LGP, etc, the FIBA rule is the same as the Fed rule (AFAICT). Having said that, these free FIBA videos are priceless.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

so your local rule would apply, including how to handle errant cases. So what does the rule book for your league say?

We have similar rules (youth officials too) and run into the "when is a rebound posession," how long can players "fight for the ball," "what if player B1 is running back to get in the play and has his hands up/out in the backcourt and A1 throws a pass that hits him in the back court - was he playing defense?" Shoot me!

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Fed = travel. NCAA = ? ...... "Pivot toes" = LMAO

Better than the infamous "pivot cheek!"

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by grunewar

We have similar rules (youth officials too) and run into the "when is a rebound posession," how long can players "fight for the ball," "what if player B1 is running back to get in the play and has his hands up/out in the backcourt and A1 throws a pass that hits him in the back court - was he playing defense?" Shoot me!

It's actually refreshing to see that my provincial body's rules changes for these youngins isn't the only place that has these controversies.

[jTheUmp]

Originally Posted by grunewar

We have similar rules (youth officials too) and run into the "when is a rebound posession," how long can players "fight for the ball," "what if player B1 is running back to get in the play and has his hands up/out in the backcourt and A1 throws a pass that hits him in the back court - was he playing defense?" Shoot me!

The youth rec league I work has a similar "no pressing" rule that goes like this:
11U: no press at all in the first half. Press allowed in the second half until one team obtains a 10+ point lead. At that point, the leading team cannot press, but the losing team can.

12U - 18U: pressing allowed for any team that isn't leading by 20+ points.

Here's how we interpret it:
If B clearly (in the judgement of the officials) secures possession in their backcourt and makes no attempt to advance toward their frontcourt (in the judgement of the officials), then all of A's players must retreat into their backcourt (B's frontcourt) until B crosses the mid-court line.

If, however, there is any doubt over possession, or if B attempts to advance immediately, all pressing restrictions are off and A is free to play defense in the frontcourt. In other words "If your player runs herself into trouble, that's her fault"

It causes some confusion, to be sure, but I try to make sure I get the coaches (especially the 11U coaches) on my side and ask them to instruct their players to "fall back" when necessary, because they players will listen to their coaches voice and not my voice.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

It causes some confusion, to be sure, but I try to make sure I get the coaches (especially the 11U coaches) on my side and ask them to instruct their players to "fall back" when necessary, because they players will listen to their coaches voice and not my voice.

In the younger leagues we sometimes have to blow the whistle to stop the play and remind the players about the rule (in the heat of battle and all). Thankfully, the coaches are pretty good about it.

These next two weeks/weekends are "playoff time" however, so, much good demeanor and sportsmanship will go out the window as the players endeavor to witn their trophies and make the All Star Team, coaches to get their "pay raises" and win "coach of the yr" honors, and for their parents to secure those coveted scholarships for the D1 schools of their choice! (sarc)

Should be fun starting at 6:15 tonight! HOORAH!

[NoFussRef]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

The youth rec league I work has a similar "no pressing" rule that goes like this:
11U: no press at all in the first half. Press allowed in the second half until one team obtains a 10+ point lead. At that point, the leading team cannot press, but the losing team can.

12U - 18U: pressing allowed for any team that isn't leading by 20+ points.

Here's how we interpret it:
If B clearly (in the judgement of the officials) secures possession in their backcourt and makes no attempt to advance toward their frontcourt (in the judgement of the officials), then all of A's players must retreat into their backcourt (B's frontcourt) until B crosses the mid-court line.

If, however, there is any doubt over possession, or if B attempts to advance immediately, all pressing restrictions are off and A is free to play defense in the frontcourt. In other words "If your player runs herself into trouble, that's her fault"

It causes some confusion, to be sure, but I try to make sure I get the coaches (especially the 11U coaches) on my side and ask them to instruct their players to "fall back" when necessary, because they players will listen to their coaches voice and not my voice.

Our youth league uses NFHS rules with some modifications. As for BC-guarding; 5th grade on up to HS players are allowed full-court press/zone/trap defense until they are ahead by 20pts or more.

Once ahead by 20pts they cannot guard in BC (even "inadvertently") the defense must allow the offense to advance the ball into FC before guarding them. HOWEVER, we allow "transition-defense". This means no BC-guarding on ANY inbound play (such as after a basket or a whistle), but if ball is rebounded, stolen, etc... the defense can still guard them in the BC.

[dfscott]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

1) This is not a NCAA or NFHS rule, so your local rule would apply, including how to handle errant cases. So what does the rule book for your league say?

Unfortunately, it doesn't say anything. I'm the keeper/author of our rule book so that's why I'm trying to get some input.

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Edit: For the purposes of block/charge and LGP, etc, the FIBA rule is the same as the Fed rule (AFAICT). Having said that, these free FIBA videos are priceless.

Thanks for the links to the FIBA video. Luckily, my wife and I are in charge of making rules for the league (with input from other staff members), so if the FIBA videos are all we have access to right now, we can tailor our rules to fit them. I'd much rather have a "different" set of rules that are uniformly and correctly enforced than have a "right" set of the rules that we're confused about.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by dfscott

Unfortunately, it doesn't say anything. I'm the keeper/author of our rule book so that's why I'm trying to get some input.



Thanks for the links to the FIBA video. Luckily, my wife and I are in charge of making rules for the league (with input from other staff members), so if the FIBA videos are all we have access to right now, we can tailor our rules to fit them. I'd much rather have a "different" set of rules that are uniformly and correctly enforced than have a "right" set of the rules that we're confused about.

Personally, for 4-6th graders, I'd use NFHS rules. But in the end, the differences are mostly insignificant. NFHS rules on technical fouls are, IMO, much simpler.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Personally, for 4-6th graders, I'd use NFHS rules. But in the end, the differences are mostly insignificant. NFHS rules on technical fouls are, IMO, much simpler.

I agree. Likely very few people in the US know FIBA rules, so you're better off to stay with rules the kids will play until the end of HS.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Personally, for 4-6th graders, I'd use NFHS rules.

+1

Much of the time, these leagues/tourneys will say "all high school rules apply" without knowing some of the ones that are drilled into our heads. (Just be prepared for, "well, we didn't mean THAT rule!")

Those illegal defense rules can be problematic, too, particularly, "no pressing if you're up by 10 or more points." You'll just have to keep your eye on the scoreboard at times. Also, I make it clear in pre-game that, if you commit a foul during an illegal defense, the foul still stands. (Some have argued that there should have been a whistle prior to the foul.)

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bainsey

+1

Much of the time, these leagues/tourneys will say "all high school rules apply" without knowing some of the ones that are drilled into our heads. (Just be prepared for, "well, we didn't mean THAT rule!")

Those illegal defense rules can be problematic, too, particularly, "no pressing if you're up by 10 or more points." You'll just have to keep your eye on the scoreboard at times. Also, I make it clear in pre-game that, if you commit a foul during an illegal defense, the foul still stands. (Some have argued that there should have been a whistle prior to the foul.)

You think it's bad in basketball, try working youth football where certain positions aren't allowed to rush the passer and only certain players (weight restrictions) can handle the ball. What a mess. More arguments about this made up crap than about the actual base ruleset we're using.

[dfscott]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Personally, for 4-6th graders, I'd use NFHS rules. But in the end, the differences are mostly insignificant. NFHS rules on technical fouls are, IMO, much simpler.

In retrospect, I think I will look at those. Other than my head ref's familiarity with the rules, I mainly went with NCAA rules since they are freely available for download and when I went to nhfs.org, it said I had to be a member of a high school sports association to download the NFHS rules. Is anyone aware of any other place to get them?

Originally Posted by SamIAm

Mr. dfscott,

Are you using/running an Upward Basketball league?

Actually, it's not. It's a completely independent neighborhood league sponsored by our local church. We had no basketball programs in the vicinity and tons of kids in 4th or 5th grade that didn't even know how to dribble. (For someone like me that grew up where *everyone* had a hoop in their backyard, it was inconceivable). We started with very basic rules, even for the older kids, for this reason.

We started it last year with about 100 kids and it grew to over 250 this year and we had to turn people away. We were overwhelmed with the positive response -- so much that my wife quit her corporate job to be the full time Recreation Director of the church primarily to run this league.

Originally Posted by grunewar

In the younger leagues we sometimes have to blow the whistle to stop the play and remind the players about the rule (in the heat of battle and all). Thankfully, the coaches are pretty good about it.

We do that as well for our younger leagues (K & 1st grade). We don't impose any penalties for dribbling violations or fouls -- we just stop play, tell them what they did wrong, and then continue without forcing a turnover.

Originally Posted by bainsey

Those illegal defense rules can be problematic, too, particularly, "no pressing if you're up by 10 or more points." You'll just have to keep your eye on the scoreboard at times. Also, I make it clear in pre-game that, if you commit a foul during an illegal defense, the foul still stands. (Some have argued that there should have been a whistle prior to the foul.)

Indeed. We used to say that only the trailing team could press, but it became a problem in a few see-saw battles, so we just changed it so everyone could.

The main reason it's in place is because there is no 10-second rule, so the leading team could simply hold the ball in the backcourt to run out the clock.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by dfscott

Thanks for the rapid replies!

To clarify on #1 (based on what I saw from the scorers table): A2 has possession, B1 slaps the ball and they both begin to scramble for control of the ball. During the tussle, whistle blows, then B1 grabs ball.

Given that, it sounds like A's ball, right?

The sad thing is the coach of B is also our head official (I don't think we're going to allow refs to coach next year). As much as he hates people arguing with his calls, he complains more than any of them!

Originally Posted by dfscott

Unfortunately, it doesn't say anything. I'm the keeper/author of our rule book so that's why I'm trying to get some input.

Thanks for the links to the FIBA video. Luckily, my wife and I are in charge of making rules for the league (with input from other staff members), so if the FIBA videos are all we have access to right now, we can tailor our rules to fit them. I'd much rather have a "different" set of rules that are uniformly and correctly enforced than have a "right" set of the rules that we're confused about.

I'm guessing that the illegal defense occurs when playing defense in A's back court. Slapping the ball away sure sounds like defense to me. Even if B doesn't obtain possession, team A now has less time to avoid a 10-second violation. Blow the whistle, voice the defensive violation, and assess the penalty. If you don't yet have a penalty for this, you can consider to use what we use in my province: Team A gets a front court throw-in at the foul line extended.

If you don't allow back court defense, it sounds to me that A basically gets a free pass to get the ball to their front court (save a traveling or 10-second violation, etc). Even if there is still no in-bounds possession by A, B still cannot intervene. So call the violation.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I'm guessing that the illegal defense occurs when playing defense in A's back court. Slapping the ball away sure sounds like defense to me. Even if B doesn't obtain possession, team A now has less time to avoid a 10-second violation. Blow the whistle, voice the defensive violation, and assess the penalty. If you don't yet have a penalty for this, you can consider to use what we use in my province: Team A gets a front court throw-in at the foul line extended.

If you don't allow back court defense, it sounds to me that A basically gets a free pass to get the ball to their front court (save a traveling or 10-second violation, etc). Even if there is still no in-bounds possession by A, B still cannot intervene. So call the violation.

The play in question happened at under 2 minutes -- in the OP it was communicated that this was legal at that time and it was, in fact, an IW.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

The play in question happened at under 2 minutes -- in the OP it was communicated that this was legal at that time and it was, in fact, an IW.

Agreed, the timing of the whistle is what matters on an IW, not the timing of the phantom infraction you almost called.