Intentional foul

Tim Roden · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 27, 2002, 12:36am

Ok, I was watching a game tonight as a fan. But the official in me still wants to understand the intentional call that was made tonight. D1 school playing a D3 school. D1 player on a fast break heading toward the basket the D3 kid catches up with the d1 player and then tries to block the layup. He gets all arm and grabs. Bodies collide but it is not dangerous(IMHO). The official calls intentional. The call came from C and he was trailing the play by a long way. Would the grabbing of the arm be enough for you to call the intentional foul or should there be more? I know I saw the kid ask what he did but the coach was out of it tonight. I don't think he said a word the whole game.

just another ref · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 27, 2002, 12:41am

Let's all say it together: "I would have to have seen it, but," doesn't sound intentional to me.

zebraman · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 27, 2002, 01:15am

No offense, but what makes you think the coach was "out of it?" As an official, I can appreciate a coach who keeps his piehole shut... it doesn't mean he wasn't into the game. Not all coaches are type A personalities.

As the previous poster said, it's hard to comment on the foul without being there. I'm going to assume that the official thought that the foul was harder than it needed to be and maybe the ref was doing some preventative officiating and sending a message to nip it in the bud. Or maybe since he was a few feet from the play rather than having a view from the stands he (and possibly the coach) saw something that you didn't see.

Z

Tim Roden · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 27, 2002, 01:21am

Ok, I saw the foul but I didn't see it as intentional. I guess I need to ask the calling official if he were to sign on to this web site and explain himself. But he doesn't have to.

As far as the coach being out of it. He is a coach I have watched many times and he just wasn't himself tonight. He is a type A personality on the floor normally. I think he could have been intimidated by the setting or he had other things besides winning to worry about so he wasn't concerned about the officiating. After all it wasn't a conference game and it was the first game of the season. Maybe also since he wasn't going to see d1 officials the rest of the year, he wasn't going to try and work these guys like I know he does at the d3 level.

[Edited by Tim Roden on Nov 27th, 2002 at 12:24 AM]

RecRef · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 27, 2002, 09:47am

IIRC - Recent NCAA womenÂ’s tape, A1 is going for a lay-up and B1 moves into her, just a bump. Tape says that you must call and intentional as B1 was not playing the ball (groans from us in the peanut gallery). C may have thought that B1 was only playing the arm, and thus it was intentional or C called it on the grab. From what you described, yes not having seen it, IÂ’d call a hack while shooting and award 1 or 2 FT depending.

As for where C was, I have a problem with court coverage in general. Often, because of the big bodies involved and their bunching/falling back into the lane for a rebound only a C or T in 3 or the T in 2 man can see a play which is out of his primary.

stripes · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 27, 2002, 10:22am

I think that there are opportunities to call intentional and we never consider it. Without seeing this play, I can't comment specifically, but it sounds like B1 was in a bad position defensively and without an opportunity to play the ball the only chance to stop the play was a foul. This could be interpreted as intentional.

I was watching some officials reffing a HS scrimmage last week and had B1 foul A1 from behind on a fast break. During a break, I asked the calling official if caling an intentional ever crossed his mind. He looked at me kind of funny and said no. We talked about the play and it had all of the markings of an intentional, but was in the middle of a scrimmage. It was just during a time that we don't think of intentional fouls (as opposed to the end of a game). He asked me if I thought it should have been an intentional, I told him that he has to make that judgement, but that I thought he should have considered an intentional foul. Remember that if the criteria is met to call a travel, we call it. Intentional fouls are no different.

Tim Roden · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 27, 2002, 11:20am

Quote:

Originally posted by stripes
I think that there are opportunities to call intentional and we never consider it. Without seeing this play, I can't comment specifically, but it sounds like B1 was in a bad position defensively and without an opportunity to play the ball the only chance to stop the play was a foul. This could be interpreted as intentional.

No, the position was good for the defender b1. He hussled down the floor and was in good position. I think Stripes is closer to the truth.

walter · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 27, 2002, 02:01pm

I've come around to what stripes posted. I've been told at camp and in game situations that if the only thing the defender can do is to foul to stop a play, the call should be intentional. The one play I had was in a college game where A1 stole the ball from B1 near the division line and broke to the basket. B1 trailing A1. A1 goes in for a lay-up and B1, from behind, tries to block the ball and contacts A1 in the back and head and made a swat at the ball. We've all seen this where somebody tries to block a ball from behind and there's a crash. I called it a common foul (two shots to A1). Afterwards, my partner a D1 official and my supervisor asked me whether I considered calling an intentional foul on the play. When I said no, they asked me "what else could B1 have done in that situation other than foul? He couldn't have gotten to the ball other than going through A1.". With that being the case, why not intentional. I've tried to look at these type of things that way ever since.

ronald · #9 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 30, 2002, 05:00pm

How often do the D1 officials call the intentional foul? They may have asked Walter if he considered it but would they have called it. Yesterday in a 13u rising star tournament, A1 (male) released the ball on a layup on a breakaway, was still airborne and B1 (a female)pushed him. I had no qualms calling an intentional foul. B1 was not making a play on the ball. The coach, who happens to be a D1 ref, did not understand why and of course disagreed. Fouls of that type IMHO should be called when they happen but generally are not called.

JRutledge · #10 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 30, 2002, 11:54pm

Was this a Women's game or a Men's game? Women's game says that any touching of a player from behind is considered a handcheck and an Intentional Foul. So in the Women's game, this is completely acceptable call. In the Men's game, that is another story all together.

Peace

Tim Roden · #11 (**permalink**) Sun Dec 01, 2002, 01:08am

Mens. The player did not foul from behind but actually caught up and got ahead of the ball handler. So it was a face to face foul. The only thing I saw that I thought could be intentional was the grabbing of the shooting arm. But it was not what I would have called an intentional on.

[Edited by Tim Roden on Dec 1st, 2002 at 12:34 AM]

JRutledge · #12 (**permalink**) Sun Dec 01, 2002, 01:34am

an intentional foul was not the proper call. But the big thing, I was not there. Kind of hard to make real judgements on things I did not see or cannot talk to the official that made the call and see what he saw.

Peace

Tim Roden · #13 (**permalink**) Sun Dec 01, 2002, 01:43am

I know you weren't there but the discussion is quite interesting none the less. I appreciate everyones feedback. I don't believe this one situation was an intentional but it has opened my eyes as to some new areas I could call intentional on.