Here's a question that somebody asked me and I didn't have the answer right away. I think I know the answer now, but I'd like to solicit opinions from the board. Here's the question.

Player dribbles to the FT line, then ends his dribble and throws the ball against his own backboard. He takes several steps down the lane, catches the ball after it hits the backboard, and dunks it.

We've all seen this in the NBA dunk competition. The question is: is the move actually legal in game-conditions? Is passing the ball off the backboard "passing to yourself", or an illegal dribble (since he ended his dribble)? What makes it legal or illegal, as the case may be?

As I said, I now am pretty sure that I know the answer. But what say you?

Chuck

Chuck:

I believe this is legal, as throwing the ball against your own backboard does not constitute a dribble. It is not the same as catching your own pass, since the hitting of the backboard is like the hitting of the floor inbounds. See casebook play 4.15.4(c).

Of course, if this were the opponent's backboard, it would be a double dribble violation.

When? At the moment the player catches the ball, or when he lands (which I believe).

In Chuck's case, though, I would rule it a legal play so long as, after the 'pass', the player never touched the floor while holding the ball.

Why? What has that got to do with it?

There's nothing illegal about throwing the ball off your wown backboard. It's not a dribble and it's not a pass. If throwing the ball into your basket is always a score, then throwing the ball off your backboard is simpky a rebound, even if it doesn't go in or there's no attempt.

This play is legal.

Tony, this was pretty much my thinking as well. It's not a dribble, but it sure seems like a pass. It's not batted away or fumbled, so it's not an interrupted dribble. It's obviously NOT a try, so it's hard to call it a rebound. It seems for all the world like a "self-pass".

He's dribbled and stopped. He throws the ball in the air and then he's the first to gain control of it. (Even tho it hits "the floor", although not as part of a dribble :rolleyes: )

Marty's case citation seems pretty close to what we're looking at. The more I thought about it at the time, the less comfortable I was with saying it was legal. But I guess that's just the way it is, as odd as it seems to me.

Chuck

My reasoning would be that, by throwing the ball off the backboard, the player is essentially ending his dribble. Keeping in mind it's the referee's discresion as to whether or not the player is making a legitimate try for goal, I would rule this as not a try for goal. Therefore, by catching the ball and landing, I would have to think it's a travel.

Maybe I'm confused by the whole thing - not to challenge you, but can you quote me a rule / case reference for this one???

I'm pretty sure this topic came up last year, but for the life of me, I can't find the thread.

It sounds like a travel to me. The guy is passing the ball to himself. There is nothing in 4-31 to say a pass cannot use your own backboard. If the kid has already eneded his dribble, has "control" of the ball, raises and returns his pivot foot to the floor before taking the shot, it's a travel.

I may be missing something (not for the 1st time), but it sure smells like a travel.

If the would land as you say above then yes I would say we have traveling. However, if I understand the question this situation would be when the player throws the ball off the backboard, jumps and catches the ball and then dunks the ball before returning to the ground.

With this I agree. Maybe I'm opening a new can of worms that I never should have! :eek:

Throwing the ball against your opponent's backboard constitutes a dribble...throwing the ball against your own backboard constitutes a try...let 'em dunk it!!! If you need a ruling here it is: NCAA 4-66-Art. 4, A.R. 41... A1 intercepts a pass and dribbles toward A's basket for a break-away layup. Near A's free throw line, A1 legally stops and ends his or her dribble. A1 throws the ball against A's backboard and follow the throw. While airborne, A1 rebounds the ball off the backboard and dunks. Ruling: The play shall be legal...

[Edited by rockyroad on Nov 20th, 2002 at 03:38 PM]

Absolutely, this is a judgement issue. Maybe you can tell
me - A1, all by himself, in his own front court, picks up
his dribble at the top of the key or in the paint and
tosses the ball such that it bounces off his own
backboard. How is this a pass and not a shot?

If we're playing at a level where this kid can dunk the ball, it's a pass 10 times out of 10 in my book.

Stop, throw the ball, jump, catch, dunk - no problem.

Stop, throw the ball, jump, catch, land - travel.

With that, I'll lay this one to rest. :D

Spoilsport! I'm sure Chuck didn't want this thread killed
by quoting the rules! :)

I'm with D.J. But if the ball hits the rim do we rreset the shot clock?

If they can reset it fast enough to get it done before he dunks, sure...then make sure they rest after the throw-in following the dunk also...

showboat
 

If you read in the case book under 4.15.4c it states that A1 may throw the ball off their backboard and rebound it and dribble. Lets add to this - if A1 has stopped his dribble and throws a pass to A2 who moves just as the pass is thrown, A1 is able to retreive the pass with out any penalty, but may not dribble the ball.

EVERYONE:
PLEASE read casebook plays 4.15.4 Situation C.
There is nothing about "judging" if the released ball is a pass or a try. It doesn't matter. Yes, the player MAY dribble again. It says so, right there in the NFHS casebook. It specifically states that this does NOT constitute part of a dribble. Quite frankly, it doesn't matter what any of us think, or how it "looks" to us, or if we agree with the rule and/or it's reasoning. It is our job as refs to enforce the rules as written. I honestly don't see how there is any debate about this issue if the casebook example is read (and understood).

Bard is correct. We discuss this every year.
 

I agree with Marty. Those of you who say this is traveling are falling into the age old problem that we have with coach. They see something, they don't like it, so it's obviously illegal. If it's legal to throw the ball off your own backboard, catch it and dribble it, why can't you shoot it or dunk it. You're calling this a travel because you don't like the way it looks.

That's wrong. There's nothing illegal about this play.

It is our job as refs to enforce the rules as written.

__________________________________________________ __________

Marty...do you call a backcourt violation when the ball is being passed from A1, in backcourt, to A2 in frontcourt and the ball is still in the air past your 10 count?
How bout you BBRef?

Just wondering...;)

RD
(A little "carry-over" from another thread)

[Edited by RookieDude on Nov 20th, 2002 at 06:27 PM]

No RD, I don't call everything as it is written. I don't think anyone calls everything the way the book is written. There are accepted calls and there are technically unacceptable calls. Call what's not acceptable in your area and you'll find yourself sitting at home. You have to be consistent with what other officials in your area are calling.

If the count was closest enough to 10 that he had just released the ball when I got to 10, I would call it. If I'm counting "...9...10" after he has released the pass, no, I'm not calling it because that's what's consistent with other officials in my area.

Regarding the play in this thread, the exact opposite is true. This isn't about calling the rule as it's written. This is about making something up to call because it looks funny. That's not supported by rule and it's bad.

To answer your question: Yes, I do call this violation. Invision a very close (or reasonably close) game, not much time left, and one team is pressing full court, trying to cause a turnover. My count gets to 8, 9,...ball is released...ball is in the air... count reaches 10. Tweet.
Sorry, I am not going to take that turnover away from the team performing great defense.

However, I do use common sense (which is probably what you are trying to figure out). If the score is quite lopsided, my count would likely be a little "slower." To me, this is different than the original question of this post. I would allow the hitting of player's own backboard (and catch, shoot, dribble) regardless other game circumstances (score, time left, etc). That action is one I have no "control" over, unless I don't mind blowing the call (as in being wrong).

Showboat Dunk!
 

Chuck,
I guess depending on where you live, and what types of leagues you work, this play may seem crazy. There are a few leagues here in New York City where you may see this move often. I personally love it when I am on a game, and I get to watch a player make a dunk like that. I would never call traveling on this paticular play. In fact, I have never seen any official call traveling on this move.

Re: Showboat Dunk!
 

Me either, Butch. But I was trying to get to the rules-basis for the legality or illegality of the move. I don't want to let it slide just b/c it looks "cool".

Haven't seen you post much, lately. Glad to have you back

Chuck

Showboat Dunk!
 

Hey Chuck,
I see your point, and I do feel like a "new jack' after not visiting Officiating.com for a while. I miss you guys alot, but I have been spending alot of my time trying to keep my website officiating group alive. Maybe you and some of the other guys can stop by and say hello. The name of the group is called Basketball Officials United, and the address is:Bsktblloffcl/groups.aol.com

My two cents
 

By rule, there is nothing wrong with the original play. The rules allow it. If anyone calls this a violation, they are making up their own rules. By definition the ball bouncing off your own backboard is a rebound - even if you deem the carom not a try. The player may begin a new dribble at that point. It is not a pass to self because it hit the player's backboard. Again, those who would call a violation are making up their own rules.

I see this differently than not calling a 3, 5, or 10 second violation. There the ref is choosing not to enforce an existing rule. But to call a violation on a legal play is making up a rule that just isn't there.

Ref,

I don't disagree at all that this play is legal, based upon the case study. But as I stated in another thread, I think the reasoning is bad. The definition of a try says nothing regarding the ball contacting the backboard equalling an attempt at a score.

I won't whistle it, but I don't think the rule is correct.

My 2-cents worth, and my thanks to F C E and Marty for pointing out the relevant Case sit.

Making The traveling Call
 

As an official sometimes we need to remember that the game is entertainment for the fans. It's not always about calling everything, but the good officials know when to pass on stuff. There is a summer league here in Harlem, New York called The Entertainers Basketball Classic. This tournament is played in the world famous Rucker Park. On a daily bassis you will see dunks like this and some other crazy plays, but if you want to last in this league you will more than likely pass on this paticular play, and some others similar. Trust me, it works for me in this league!Pick your spots carefully when making some calls, because the call you pass on may be the on that helps you get noticed by the right people.

Re: Making The traveling Call
 

Excuse me, but reffing high school basketball is NOT entertainment for the fans. This is NOT the NBA (which is strictly entertainment). I do not want to be part of the tournament you are describing simply becuase it waters down my (and all officials') credibility. The name of the tournament says it all, and that is OK, if you enjoy it. But to compare it to high school, or college, where we strive to referee a fair game for the players, by the rules, is absurd. If the call I stick to, by rule, doesn't get me where I want to go, then so be it. But, at least I will be able to look at myself in the mirror the next day, as a referee, not an entertainer.

Sorry about the rant. This ticked me off.

Re: Re: Making The traveling Call
 

Calm down man. Aint no biggie.

Ok, OK you're right. I'll go have an adult beverage, then hit the hay. It's that "entertainment" thing that got to me. I put too much time and energy into my officiating for it to be considered entertainment (for me or anyone else). My apologies if I overreacted.

The question I have is when the player throws the ball off the board to himself, then what is it? It is not a dribble. It is not a pass. If the whole thing is obviously done deliberately, it is not a try for field goal.
So, what is it that you can throw, run and catch, dribble again, do whatever you want?

Showboat Dunk!
 

Hey,
Do I detect some anger coming from Mr. Rogers neighborhood?
Can anyone tell me if I missed something here in Chuck's original post? I could have swore that there was no mention of this paticular play taking place in a High School,College, or NBA game. So I was just sharing my expierence with this kind of play, and not knocking any official who feels that this play should be called depending on the rule book definition, If there was a traveling violation. Now, let me touch on this tournament that I mentioned in my previous reply. The Entertainers Basketball Classic is a summer league that is sanctioned by the NCAA, and the NBA. And yes, this league draws players from the NCAA and NBA on a regular bassis. And the type of play that Chuck is describing in this post is common in this league. Do we call traveling on this play in this league or any other High School, College, or NBA game? I have yet to see anyone make this call, but maybe after this post someone will see it and share it with us. And as far as the officials who work this league,there are some pretty good D1, D2, and D3 college officials on staff. And as far as myself is concerned, I don't think our officiating skills are watered down! In fact this league has helped me in some areas of officiating. Such as handling coaches, players, and the most important for me was the crowd. This park is packed and you get called everything but the "child of god" out there. This league has helped me relax on the court, and referee big! Is this league for every official? NO, then don't knock, it until you try it. And as far as attacking me for just sharing my expierence, it's cool. This league also helped me develope a tuff skin. So the next time you get upset because of the word "entertainment," you may want to remeber that basketball is a game! And we as officials must learn how to adapt to all types of levels of basketball games. And, the ones that learn how to adapt, usually get the big games. So as the kids would say here in Harlem, New York. Don't hate the players, hate the game!

I cannot believe this is a debate.
 

Casebook 4.4.5 <b>SITUATION</b> clearly states that throwing the ball up against the backboard is considered a dribble. So if the player has already dribbled, this is double dribble if the dribble had ended by a player picking the ball up and throwing it against the backboard. It is only legal if not dribble has started. But usually this is not the case.

Peace

Re: I cannot believe this is a debate.
 

Jeff, I'm sure others will point this out, too, but the case you mention occurs in A's backcourt. The ball is thrown off the opponent's backboard. My case (and case 4.15.4c) concerns throwing the ball off your own backboard. And 4.15.4c is pretty clear that you can dribble, hold the ball, throw it off your own backboard, recover and dribble again. It's a weird ruling, but that's the ruling.

Chuck

You are right.
 

I stand corrected. This is only deals with the opponents backboard. But this rule seems inconsistent to me. But I do remember in an NCAA Final game, back in 1991 I believe. UNLV and Duke were playing and one of the UNLV players threw the ball off the backboard and dunked. I believe a official called double dribble on the UNLV player. This was the year UNLV blew out Duke to win the National Championship. The following year Duke one in that big upset when UNLV was undefeated the next year.

Peace

Re: You are right.
 

I don't know what the rule was in 1991, but a quick perusal of the current (and past several) NCAA rules books (hint: read the ARs in Rule 4) will reveal that the rule is the same in NCAA and FED -- throwing the ball off the opponents board is a dribble; throwing it off your own board is "nothing".

Believe it or not this play actually happened in an NBA regular season game. Tracy McGrady tossed himself an alley-oop off the backboard and dunked it. No call.

[Edited by ewiar on Dec 4th, 2002 at 06:08 PM]

Inconsistency
 

These kind of rule inconsistencies surely are not beneficial to the game (are they????) and they are obviously contrary to our own consistency enforcing the rules.

Are there others goofies in the basketball rules that I should be aware of?

It's okay to double dribble on Tuesdays before noon. Lefthanded players must use their left foot for pivot.... unless they are using a Wilson ball then either foot is okay. Unless...

Personally, I can enforce it... and previous to this discussion, I would have called the play a double dribble... so you have educated me. But it seems goofier than an egg shaped basketball... at the end of your dribble you can pass to yourself, if you use your own backboard, but you cannot do it on the defense's backboard..... RIGHT !

Point me in the direction of other oddities I need to learn. Thanks, Tony

Legal self-pass
 

First time poster... Interesting thread...

But, I don't see why this concept seems so strange to some? If you bounce the ball off the rim or backboard of you own basket, it's a shot. Doesn't matter what your intent was, whether it was an errant pass attmept to another player, a shot attempt, or intended as a self-pass, you can get it like a rebound (and dribble again)...

A player cannot take a shot at the opposing players basket... There was just a case of this the other night in the NBA where a player was going for a triple-double and needed one rebound. He took the ball in the backcourt and bounced it off the other teams rim, then got his tenth 'rebound'. The problem is that this was really a dribble, not a shot, so he didn't get credit for the rebound and didn't get his triple double. Actually, now I know he should have been called for a double-dribble :-), but the NBA refs didn't call it...

Another really interesting rule that gets into the interpretation of the act of shooting (I was investigating this rule and is how I ended up here) is the rule where a player can LEGALLY do a self-pass... If a player takes a legitimate shot at the basket (obvious room for interpretation here), then he can catch his own shot EVEN IF IT DOESN'T HIT THE RIM OR BACKBOARD!! This rule surprises me, and I would love to know how it is stated in the rule books... This rule seems way more outlandish then a player using the backboard for a self-pass...

- Matt Cowan

A shot attempt that misses everything is not a travel because in the rule book it states that player control ends with a try which is defined as an attempt to score. Once you've lost player control catching your own shot is simply gaining player control for a new time.

Re: Legal self-pass
 

Hi Matt, welcome to the board. You really had to do some digging to find this thread from four months ago! :)

According to the rules, it does matter in most cases. A "try" (or a shot) is an attempt to put the ball in the basket. In the case we're talking about, the player is clearly NOT trying to score. He's throwing the ball off the backboard in order to catch it again.

If you're fouled during a try, you get to shoot FTs. But in the case we're talking about, if the player had been fouled, he would not be awarded FTs b/c he wasn't shooting. So there is a difference between a shot or try and just hitting the backboard.

As to your other question, the reason the player can retrieve his own airball is that once the try is attempted, by rule there is no longer any player or team control. Since there's no team control, any player is free to secure control, including the shooter.

Hope that helps.

Chuck

Whoa whoa whoa...don't EVER assume that since something wasn't called in an NBA game that it isn't against the rules...

Hmmmm.
 

Is there a maximum number of times allowed that an offensive player may take a ball off his own backboard and put it back up without hitting the rim? - No
Is there judgement required? - No


It's legal. It's showtime. It's fun. Even the losers will talk about how great it was ... eventually.
mick

Throwing it off the backboard . . .
 

Chuck:

I have given this one some thought . . . not that that's worth diddley, we know that . . . and I think that what you have to say about this situation is that, wink, wink, even though we know it wasn't a shot, it was. This is a little part of the game that isn't really quantifiable or qualifiable.

In the simple case, nobody does this if there's anyone within 10 feet. So, in effect, the guy shoots, he misses, he puts it back. If he lands before he catches the ball, fine. He's just wasting time, so this better work out, or, hopefully, he's going to have one mad coach to deal with.