We had a lot of discussions last night at our meeting...
here is another one that came up.
A1 dribbling backcourt, Referee has count at nine seconds when A1 releases ball, the ball sails in the air for about two seconds before it reaches A2 standing in front court.
Many officials said this is a 10-second backcourt violation...many said they would not call this, they treat it like a throw-in, when the ball leaves the players hand the count stops.
Comments?
Has any official here ever called the backcourt violation when the ball is in the air?

RD

By rule I believe this is a violation because the ball has not achieved front court status until it touches the court or a player in front court. should you call it? If is clearly past your 10 second count, yes.

Violation!
 

4.12 A team is in control .... while a live ball is being passed among teammates...

9.8 A player shall not be, nor may his/her team be, in continuous control of a ball which is in his/her backcourt for 10 seconds.

4.4.3 A ball which is in flight retains the same location as when it was last in contact with a player or court (bounce pass off the frontcourt would end the count!).

I tend to reward the defense and call the violation even if the pass is in the air. Then again, sometimes I loose track of the count. Ten is a pretty high number!

By strict rule interpretation your situation is BC.
(BTW it is not in the NBA because the ball was in the air and past the mid court line)
You have to use some common sense here. If it's on a long pass and it is down near the basket when caught you are going to have to sell that one awfully hard.

I agree with rewarding good defense but dont bury yourself eithe

Kelvin is right. This falls under the catagory of "Looking for Trouble". Use some common sense and don't call the violation if the ball is in the air.

...Let's see...I never did get my question answered, "has any official here ever called the backcourt violation when the ball is in the air?"
Or maybe I did...no official here has ever called it!
4 responses:
1. It is a Rule so call the Violation
2. It is a Rule...BUT "I tend to loose track of the count"
3. It is a Rule...BUT "use common sense"
4. It is a Rule...BUT "don't call the violation..."

These responses, surprisingly enough, were about the same as at our association meeting.
Thanks to the 4 that had the guts to respond how they would call, or not call, the violation.
Any other officials care to comment on how they would treat this violation?

FYI, I tend to agree with responses 2-4...and can remember when the ball was in the air, past the mid-court line, and past the 10 second count, my whistle didn't make a "peep".
(But only because my gum got stuck in it) ;)

RD

Well, hey I got an idea, let's just arbitrarily pick which rules we are going to enforce and which ones we are going to use our "common sense" and ignore. I for one am throwing that dern three seconds out the window. :eek:

Actually, I agree with most of what everyone has said about being smart and not burying yourself, but I am not going to say I would not call it or don't call it. If I get to 10 on my count, it's probably been 11 or 12 and if the pass is just released when I get to "my 10", I would not hesitate to call it, besides, the coach is not going to know whether I had "10 count, then release" or " release, then 10 count".

Spirit of Rule
 

The fact is, there are many rules that are rarely enforced because of advantage/disadvantage principles-this backcourt situation is one of them.

We had a scenario in our meeting last night where the ball was inbounded just in front of the timeline, A1 passes to unguarded A2, who decides to tip the ball into the backcourt and then pick it up. By rule, this is not backcourt, because team control isn't established on a throwin-however, we said that there was no reason A2 shouldn't have caught the ball, so the violation was called.

Again, I would not call the 10-count, as it will only lead to more trouble.

Response number:
5. Its a Rule...BUT, "I agree with responses" but "I am not going to say I would not call it..." note: this guy knows how to speak politically correct.
6. Has "sand" enough to say he would not call it.

RD
(Do not agree with calling violation on throw in example)


[Edited by RookieDude on Nov 20th, 2002 at 06:48 PM]

Re: Spirit of Rule
 

Am I reading you correctly? You called a backcourt violation becuase A2 <em>should</em> have caught the ball in the frontcourt but didn't?

If so, do you also give the ball back to A if A2 tips the ball out-of-bounds when he should have easily caught it?

We can't make calls based on what a player could/should have done but only what they actually did. Please don't make up violations that don't exist. That is really causes headaches for everyone. How do we expect the coaches/fans to ever learn anything with such calls.

Yes. I've called it. I've also not called it. I account from some inaccuracy in my count with two basic situations. I tilt the benefit of the doubt in my count's accuracy depending on what is happinging:

1. The defense is appying intense pressure and the offense is scrambling and struggling to get the ball up the court. A pass is in the air when I hit 10 seconds. Tweet. I call it every time. The defense earned it.

2. The defense is laying back, perhaps after applying some initial pressure. The offense is gently and easily bringing the ball up. The ball is mid-pass at 10 seconds. Nothing.

Re: Spirit of Rule
 

By RULE,there is no violation.But....y'all gonna call a violation anyway.

So...you call a violation when there is no rule saying that it really is a violation.

I get it!You are kidding ,aren't you?

I think this is the answer. It's also easier for those of
us who have a shot clock...clock gets to 25 with pressure
and you've got to call it, regardless of where the ball is.

Assuming the girl who's running the shot clock started it correctly, instead of dreaming about the point guard who just drained the last 3.

I was a heckuva point guard, by the way :D (Chicks dig the long ball!!)

Chuck

If you can take your eyes off the girl at the table you'll
be able to look downcourt & see if the shot clock is at 35
when the ball gets inbounds. ;)

Re: Re: Spirit of Rule
 

Let me be more clear-first, it wasn't ME that made this call-it came up in discussion. However, in this particular scenario, an official could easily tell the coach that s/he judged team control to be established, hence the violation. I neither suggest nor condone the "making up" of violations.

I didn't say I am a heckuva point guard. I said I was. Sadly, those days of cute girls at the table staring at me are long gone :(

Chuck

Re: Re: Spirit of Rule
 

It's to balance it out with the actions that are violations by rule but not called.

I think this is what coaches mean when they say, "Call it both ways." ;)

They still stare at me, Chuck, but for some reason I don't like that look they are giving me :eek:

Re: Re: Re: Spirit of Rule
 

ROFLMAO

So does this mean that if we didn't respond, we don't have any guts??? Ouch...I guess my feelings are hurt... but then again, it was a pretty silly question...

dj,
You show an additional lack of intestinal fortitude by yet not answering the question.
I am not "brave" enough to answer RD's question.
...Wassamatta U. ?

<s>Rocket J. Squirrel</s> mick

I know mick...I keep trying, but I can't seem to find my backbone - I think I left it at home today...probably sitting on the couch with my guts watching Matlock reruns... and I would add a quote from my favorite cartoon character, but it's the Pink Panther...

I don't officate basketball anymore but when I did I would't call the violation unless the Team A player who threw the pass was trapped and was just getting rid of the ball in Desperation to try to beat the 10-second clock.

I don't remember any cute scorers/timers from my HS years - those days must be long gone, period.

Just wait.
 

When yer older, you become more diversified.

Well, for Pete's sake, Mike, why not!?!? We miss you around here!

At your age,"long gone" means 2 years. At my age, it means at least 20 years. :D

Defense is allowed to play too.
 

I think in the game of basketball we spend way too much time trying to find reasons not to call things on the offense (3 seconds, carry, FT violations). The defense should be rewarded for playing good defense. Make the call if the ball is in the air. Especially if you were at nine when the player finally throws the ball. Remember the ball is already dead by the time you actually blow your whistle. This probably is not going to happen that much anyway.

Peace