Would you access a 'T'?
 

Ok, follow me closely.
Regional playoff game.
A.D. says our game, second of the nite, will start at 8:10pm. Ask him again, he replies 8:10pm. Even the announcer says the next game will start at 8:10.
At 7:50 the A.D. come gets us, saying there's 8 minutes left on the clock. No time to argue with A. D., just get out on the floor, take a quick head count and go to the score's table & check the book. (We're used to going to the table at the 12 minute mark, giving us time to make corrections to the book if necessary). Well, visitors have a mistake in book which has to be corrected. Would you access a 'T'?

Nope, not me.

No.

Also, I don't know how to "access" a technical. I do now how to assess one though.

Beat me to it. :p

Although I would have said "I do KNOW how to assess one though." As opposed to "I do now how..." :p :p

Go ahead and whack the AD with a technical...no technical for the book issue.

I would certainly be more lenient at that time. But my question is what needed to be changed? Not sure I would nitpick this when you were told one thing and had to adjust.

Peace

Unless there were extenuating circumstance, you have no choice but to assess a "T". If the visitors didn't comply with one of the necessary items listed under NFHS rules 10-1-1&2, that's on them.

Whether you were out on the court or not when they screwed up is completely irrelevant. All that matters is that they screwed up. The visitors made the mistake; not the officials. You can't change that fact.

It's got nuthin' to do with being a hardazz either. It's got everything to do with NOT having rules backing to NOT assess a "T".

By rule you have no choice but to not assess the T.

3-2-1 "At least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time, each team shall supply the official scorer with the name and number of each team member and designate the five starting players. Failure to comply results in a technical foul (see 10-1-1 Penalty)."

The scheduled start time was 8:10 PM. The visiting team has until 8:00 PM to submit its roster. The book was checked 20 minutes before the scheduled start time.

The home team cannot manufacture a T on the visitors by changing the start time in this manner.

Something tells me this is from my state. If this is the case then a regional is not hosted by the home team necessarily. It might be two teams from other schools playing. If that is the case as it would be the case where I live, then this was a situation created beyond the control of the participants, but the host school. I would probably give any team a pass in that case for one the schedule affected everyone. I had a similar situation this year with a tournament that started and hour and a half later and I bent over backwards to make sure the information in the book was correct as they only put 10 minutes on the clock before game time. I understand what the rule is, but I think this is where some common sense has to play a role. Also I am talking more about the time frame than a legitimate mistake where the wrong number was submitted and we discovered much later.

Peace

That's where the extenuating circumstances come in. If you check and find that both teams came out to warm-up at approximately the same time, were given the customary warm-up period for a regional playoff, the clock was set at an agreed time for the warm-up and there was sufficient time for both the visiting and home scorers to enter the correct info, then there is no reason by rule NOT to assess a "T". The officials actually being on the floor is moot under those circumstances rules-wise.

If they rushed the warm-up period, then of course you can use the extenuating circumstances as a valid reason to not asses a "T".

No matter what, you still have to be able to give valid, logical and rules-based reasons to defend your action.

No, this is not a case of extenuating circumstances. The rule has nothing to due with the time on the clock. The visitors have until 10 minutes before the scheduled start time. In this case the error was discovered 20 minutes before the scheduled start time. By rule, there is no reason to penalize the visiting team.

Just because the time on the clock normally is counting down to the scheduled start time does not mean that it always is.

No T from me. The AD has clearly changed the situation to deny the visiting team the proper time frame that they're entitled to.

An analogy would be you driving along the interstate where you see a sign that says "70 MPH". So you speed up to 70. Then, without your knowledge, a state traffic worker replaces the sign with one that says "60 MPH". Now that you're speeding, a cop pulls you over and tickets you. Issuing a ticket makes no sense whatsoever.

That might be a local interpretation (which I do not have a problem with) but that is not the case everywhere. Usually what is on the game clock is ultimately what we go by. I know I do not carry a watch on the court to know what is the exact time is before we start any game. And if we do what you suggest than a team would be in violation if a game before went long and no teams submitted the proper information. This is why I think the rules allow for the Referee to make decisions not specifically covered in the rulebook and this is one of them. I agree with you that we probably would not call a T here, just do not agree with the overall logic you are making that conclusion.

Peace

It's not my logic or my local interpretation. It is the actual rule from the rule book. See, I quoted it above.

Most games that follow another game are scheduled to start a certain number of minutes after the conclusion of the previous game (typically 25 or 30 minutes later here).

But the rule is not based on the time on the clock but the scheduled starting time.

And Rut's point is the way most places interpret this rule is slightly different than the way you read it; for the reason he stated. When I'm on the court, I am not looking for a wall clock that has (in my experience) about a 40% chance of being correct. I do not carry my phone with me, so I have no way of verifying the time.

This rule was written with the assumption that the countdown is to the scheduled starting time. The rule doesn't say "originally scheduled time." If that clock is counting down to the start, then that's your clock for this purpose. The schedule has been moved up, period.

That said, I've got no T here. I'm not giving the AD the opportunity to make a bush-league move like this to try to get a cheap T against the visitors.

I think "scheduled" means "when the scoreboard clock gets to zero."

Otherwise, if a team bus is late, and the game is pushed back, we'd get a T on the visitors beore they even arrived.

In the OP -- find out why the time is off, when the teams wer notified, etc. And then decide -- it might also depend on why the book needs to be changed (and this isn't mentioned in the OP)

I disagree. We all use the clock because this rule eliminated this bush-league crap. You can't change the start time to force a T on the visitors because the turn in time is based off the scheduled start time. If they meant 10 minutes before the start of the game, they wouldn't have said "scheduled." The rule is worded the way it is to particularly cut this crap off at the knees.

If you believe the rule means you have to go by the clock, you have no choice but to issue the T here. I think you'll agree the rule is not intended to allow the home team to have the ability to always start the game with a T on the visitors.

What happens under your interpretation if I put 9:59 on the clock and just don't start it until under 10? For that matter, there is no requirement for the warm-up period to be timed at all. No, while the time on the clock is a useful tool, it is not actually determinative for this rule.

Oak Grove....final stop!
 

If you're going to access a T in boston, this might help. :D

http://www.railroad.net/articles/rai...a/mbta-map.gif

The problem is that you don't know when the game is going to actually start until it does. So, there's no way of knowing in advance when 10 minutes before the "actual" start time is. That's why the rule says "scheduled" start time.

What exactly does "scheduled" mean? It can't possibly mean the "original" time noted in some obscure computer file. Schedules change all the time.
If the clock says 15:00, that's the schedule. Otherwise, as Bob noted, a team who shows up late is going to have a T. Or, conversely, if the game gets moved up a couple hours for any reason, then neither team would be bound by the rule for any real purpose. If the game is moved back for any reason, then you'll start with a double T and each team gets one step closer to the bonus.

I absolutely have a choice. I'm not giving the home team an advantage not intented by the rules here. The scheduled time may have been moved up, but if I got so little notice as an official that I get on the court with 8:00 left rather than 15:00, I'm going to assume the coach got little notice as well and I'm going to give him a couple of minutes to adjust.

No big deal. I'd check with the table to see why it's not running (maybe they've moved the game back). If we're still on schedule, i'll check the book like normal. Again, my only accurate frame of reference on the court is that clock. Do you wear a watch on the court?

And the lack of requirement for the warm-up clock is precisely why the rule was written this way. And, as Bob noted, in case something screwy happens and the game has to be held off. If it was written to say "before the game starts" then you may have to retract some Ts.

1. You call a T with 9:00 left on the pregame clock for this.
2. With 1:00 on the pregame clock, the lights go out and it takes 15:00 to get started. The book was ready more than 10:00 before the game started, but not more than 10:00 before the scheduled start.

Yeah I kind of screwed that up. It was a typo though, as I just left the "k" off on accident. I do KNOW how to spell that word. :)

Coulda been worse. You coulda typed 'Kow tow'.

Hey buddy, take it to the figure skating forum.

+1

It's the second game of regional playoffs played at the same site. The start time of that game usually depends on when the first game gets done.

You're thinking of a Salchow (often pronounced 'sow cow'). Kow tow is Chinese. :D

Does it come with egg rolls?

Racist. :D

it comes with a (Scallion) Pancake Spin

http://media2.kickapps.com/ronin/ima...27573_main.jpg

So, Eastshire, if I am following your line of thinking correctly here...doubleheader. Game #2 is "scheduled" to start at 8:00. First game goes into triple overtime (Padgett's fault). Teams for second game take the court to being their warmups at 8:20, and both coaches submit their rosters/starters at that time. You are going to assess both of them T's because they should have had their rosters/starters turned in by 7:50 - 10 min. prior to the scheduled start time???

Really?

Seriously??

Is that near the shot clock forum?

I had this situation two nights ago. When the teams from game #1 left the court, we put up enough time to allow both teams to complete the book.

Problem solved.

On another note, I've many times suggested that schools (and clubs!) have two books at each site: one for the game in use and one for the game immediately coming up. When tournaments, that work on a tight schedule, are "behind schedule", having the book filled out while the previous game is in their 4th quarter can easily help everyone get back on track.

Unless it can be confirmed that the visiting team agreed to the earlier start with enough time to get the info in the book, I don't see where anyone can argue for the T. if If it is moved later for a delayed started (for whatever reason), they get until the "new" 10 minute mark on the countdown.

Thread Hi-Jack
 

Ok, here is where I have always had an issue. Someone please tell me if I am wrong. I read the rule as:

3-2-1 "At least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time, each team shall supply the official scorer with the name and number of each team member and designate the five starting players. Failure to comply results in a technical foul (see 10-1-1 Penalty)."

Many times the official scorer has been supplied with the correct information prior to the 10 minute mark and when I go to check the book it is incomplete or has an error. I will then check the teams own book or other source that was supplied to see if that information is correct. Am I wrong in doing this?

The rule says that the information must be supplied, not put in the book before 10 minutes. So if you know a mistake has been made in the copying of the information, of course you should not penalize the team if the scorekeeper cannot copy correctly.

Peace

I've never worked a doubleheader with the second game scheduled to start at specific time. They've all been scheduled to start after the conclusion of the previous game.

I cannot think of many games that are apart of a double header that are not scheduled at a specific time. Even JV/Varsity double headers or college games there is a game before or after in most cases and the second game has a start time. Not to say we ever make it to that start time, but it happens. That is why I figured there was a local interpretation that affected your position on this.

Peace

I've worked in three different states. In all three of them, the varsity game starts 25-30 minutes after the conclusion of the JV game. It doesn't matter if the JV games takes 45 minutes and the varsity tickets say 8:00, they're starting at 7:15. The only way to make sure you see the varsity tip is to show up at JV half-time.

So when you get your schedule, there isn't a time listed for the start of the varsity game?

You could also check the websites of the high schools, I'll bet they have times noted for the varsity tip off.

Most games I work have a contract and that is to be followed as close as possible. So if a game ends early, the game time is not supposed to start until game time. Now the schools control this, but they cannot claim someone was late if they start early as what time we get there are based on the scheduled time. Many parents get upset if the game is scheduled for 7:30 and they start 7:15. That is why I would never judge a penalty based on the game time in real time, but based on what the clock says. And it is expected teams be given the right time to warm-up. About the only sport that does not have this expectation I work is baseball. But in basketball we might start earlier, but the clock is what we base that off of, not the actual time. Most JV games are scheduled an hour and a half before the varsity contest. That almost never happens that smoothly to where we would start at the exact time after a previous game, and certainly not if we put time on the clock to warm-up.

Peace

I've not had any varsity contract in my new state so I don't know what the varsity officials get. All of the times I've checked a schools web site to double check start times, the list the varsity game with the JV start time. For example, Boy's Varsity Basketball vs. Visitors @ 6:00 PM, with 6:00 being the JV start time.

This is an unusual practice in my experience.

Interesting. I can tell you in the areas I've worked (3 metro areas in 2 states), the varsity games all have start times assigned. Even if they're tentative, they're still scheduled.

So, if they have a quick JV game do they wait for the scheduled start or do they start early?

Here it is the same as what Eastshire is saying. JV games usually start at 6:00, followed by the V game. They always put 15 minutes up after the JV game and we go off of that.

In these parts, if the JV game ends early, they will start the game at the schedule game. If that means a 25 minute wait, then so be it. Something about parents being mad that the game didn't start at the scheduled time and missing game time.

Never heard of that one :D
Being 1 hour early generally means you're 1.5 hours early in these parts.

They wait.

Wait, is that Lombardi time?

LOL! Not purposely.

I know one thing, it sure sucks to fight through traffic to make it to a site at 6 just to see the 5:40 left in the 1st Q...

You should be working behind my JV games. I've only had 3 games go to double bonus all year. (I will now be cursed with double overtimes for the rest of the season.)

Interesting. I wish they did that here. I can't tell you how many times I've walked into a varsity game half-way through the first quarter (to watch of course).

Sounds like an official who knows how to sort out incidental contact from illegal contact. I hope not, knock on wood!

I just pretend it's soccer. :D

Ok, then...Eastshire - you have a JV game assigned to you. The scheduled start time on your assignment is 6:00. You show up at 5:15, and see that there is a freshman game going on. That game goes into double bonus both ways in the third quarter, and does not end until 5:55...you then assess both JV teams with T's because they did not submit rosters at 5:50. Right? That's 10 min. before the scheduled start time...

Same here. The only time the varsity game doesn't start at the scheduled time is when the JV runs long. If it ends early, the V game waits.

I don't presume to speak for Eastshire, but here's my take. If the officials were told one starting time, then that time was bumped forward, the assumption is the coach was treated the same way. 8:10 starting time is understood. Everyone is there early, preparing in customary fashion. But, at 7:50 when time is put on the clock, for whatever reason, it is 10 minutes instead of 20.
Coach submits his roster, but now it's too late to correct.

Having said all that, isn't the mistake itself the important part? Book lists 2 players with number 22. Official checks the book at 12 minutes, but overlooks it. When it is discovered later, do you T for that or not?

We try to count the players after a timeout, but if we see 6 ten seconds later, somebody is still accountable.

I just might correct the timing error on the clock in that case. "Timer, set the clock to 10:30" :D
You check the source of the data. If provided correctly but copied in error, fix it with no penalty. If provided in error and copied correctly, fix it an penalize.

Right. The same as you would if the official never checked the book at all.

I agree. Here we also try to be a little proactive - the R goes to the table around 11:00. It gives us a chance to catch a potential problem and address it before we have to assess a T.

Any "out" is a good idea when it comes to starting a game with "T". In this case, you have a reason to challenge the time limit.... Use it and move on. No reason to start the game with an asterisk if you can.