Judgement v Missed Rule
 

I was working a GJV game last night with a rookie partner. As L, I'm administering an endline throw-in. A1 throws the ball towards the sideline. A2 makes a diving bat to keep the ball inbounds (no control imo). A3, who obviously thinks she cannot go into the back court, awkwardly attempts to get the ball while remaining in the FC but ultimately goes into the BC. I do not believe A3 ever gains control before my partner whistles a BC violation.

Now this call is out of my primary (I'm only seeing it since it was near my sideline in the first place) and for all I know at the time, my partner feels A3 gained control before going into the backcourt. Do you confer with him or just go with his call?

I went with his call and talked to him about it afterward. He did indeed kick it as he didn't have A3 gaining control.

On some violations (like this one), I have conferred with my partner and report to him what I saw and the rule and let him decide from there.

Depends. Is it a gamer or a play they can recover from?

6 seconds left in a 2 point game, I'd go to him with info & it's up to them if they want to go with an IW to get it right.

3:50 left in the 1st Q I've got nothing unless they ask...

In this case it was 0:04 left in the 3rd of a close game.

imho, i do not want my partner to "kick a rule"...part of being a good partner is to prevent that from happening (I would certainly want my partner to help me if I were in a situation were I was not-appyling a rule correctly)....

when you talk about it/share information on the court, you have a chance to correct it. when you talk about it/share info in the locker room....it's too late!!!

Don't ever question your partner on a judgment call.

If your partner kicks a rule and asks for help, you can offer your knowledge and let him decide if he needs to change it. Otherwise, it's his call and you should stay out of it.

You've got to be 100% sure he kicked a rule before even talking to him, IMO. If you think there's a possibility that he judged it differently (and you did here), then let it go.

2 wrongs make it right?
If one chooses to go THAT route, dont bring it up in post-game!
Cant stand working with or listening to "those guys" that do nothing to assist, but wanna show off after the fact. Oh you fancy huh?

As Jeff said...


Thats tough, did we have a huge negative reaction? Or did they buy his act?
Afterall, it was a GJV. j/k

keep in mind guys that he said it was a rookie....I am more apt to offer advice to a rookie in this type of situation then I would a person who has been on the court 3-5 years.

Yes! I should have added that I would have to be 100%.

Fortunately, 97% of people in the gym knew it was a backcourt violation.
 

... I would try to get to my rookie partner's earshot and ask "did we establish team control??", prompting him to dialog. I would offer information and encourage/let them decide.

I don't think bringing it up later is showing off, particularly in the situation of working with a rookie. In this case, he specifically asked me in pre-game to bring up anything I may have noticed during the game.

There was virtually no reaction from the coaches and players. The fans on the other hand were screaming "You have to have control!" Where in the world do you find fans that understand both the backcourt rule and that there's no team control during a throw in?

You obviously dont know some of the guys that I know... many people are not from the "if you dont look good, I dont look good" camp.

Play on!

I'm from the "I'd like to look good, but I'd rather be right." camp.

Right, and it seems here there was some doubt as to the nature of his error. If there's even a chance it might be judgment, as you indicated, I'll let it go and ask him later what he saw on that play. Only if there's zero chance that it was a judgment error will I approach him during the game.

the days of "it's not in my area so it's not my business" are over....get the call right is, and should be, the goal for officials...

Really!! Depending on the level of ball one works & what type of camps (if any) one attends, "dont call in my area" can be quite the norm :D

I always thought the goal was to officiate engaged matchups in our PCA while knowing where our partners are, the ball is & as many of the players on the court as possible. Hell, I even like to be aware when a sub gets up off the bench & heads to the table...

There are more reasons to leave this alone than to deal with it on the court; assuming you think it could possibly be a judgment call.

Snaqs, is OOB violations a judgment call?

Nope, but backcourt violations can be due to the need to determine whether and when control is established.

Ok, so making an IC on OOB is not an error in judgment, we just saw it wrong?

Not sure where you're heading with this. Yes, you're right. OOB calls are judgment calls. Not sure what I was thinking.

+1

I believe the Golden Rule applies here. I tell every partner, if you think I kicked something, come talk to me. We'll compare what we saw.

Go talk with your partner. Besides, if you late that play go, you're only perpetuating the myth (or ignorance, really) that team control isn't considered in a backcourt violation.

:mad:Don't even get me started on the "Over and Back" call. It has been the most kicked rule I have seen this year. Really? Is it THAT hard!!
BUT I am not in the 100% sure camp. If I have information that I am 'pretty sure' the other official does not have (can't really put a percentage on it, but say over 85%) I am going to speak with them. Especially if I was a veteran with a rookie/newer partner. (Of course we had to 15+ year vets not know the rule last nite, but the 5 yr vet knew it!! Guess that is why he does College ball as well)
Ok, I will now retrun the soap box to its regular place!

I'm just saying, lets get it right.

Some have said dont help on judgment calls but we always help on OOB calls. Just wanted clarify if that was a judgment call.

In the OP its a competitive GJV game with :04 left in the 3rd Q & no negative reaction from the players/bench... play on. Afterall, they have 8 minutes to recover from the ICC, right ;)

No, I don't always help on OOB calls; only if I'm confident I saw something the calling official missed. Even then, some officials on this forum have different criteria for doing that.

To me, the BC call is closer to a travel call than an OOB call, especially when a determination of control is involved such as the OP. I have helped partners with this call; most recently on a throwin from the FC endline that landed 15 feet into the BC. Partner called the violation, I went and had a chat with her to discuss it. But if the pass and catch had been close enough that I thought she might have judged control was gained in the FC, I'd have let it go.

That was a given :D

Makes sense.

I saw an NBA official head towards a partner after an IC on OOB which resulted in a huge negative "fan" reaction. The calling official didnt allow the helper to come all the way to him, he just said, "oh, you have it the other way?" hit the whistle & changed his call. It took all of 2 seconds & looked really good... trust! They must've pregamed "if I'm headed your way I'm 110% sure."

Right, that's the approach some on here take. "If you come to me, I'll assume you're right so I'm changing the call."

There's so many moving parts to BC that it's sometime like traveling and sometimes like OOB.

For instance, if you as L have the ball down in your corner and see a deflection from B and A clearly recovers in the BC, you're going to correct it like an OOB. On the other hand, if A is right around the line, you have a harder time. Did you partner notice the touch and A just got to it before it went across or did he not see the touch and A wasn't the last to touch in the front court.

I think if A recovers it near the line you're just going to have to trust your partner.

Exactly, and the OP was more like traveling in that he couldn't tell if control was established in the FC.

So if you're watching your partner's primary area of coverage (not dual area), then who is watching yours?

My conference assignor has instructed his staff: if you call out of your primary area, it better be for a non-basketball play.

see post #17

It is what it is...

I have no problem with getting it right, but there is a right way to do that. If it is judgment calls we need to live with those. Officials get those wrong often. The only way I would give information is if I saw the entire play and I know it was one way and my partner had another way and we have some dual or coverage where I would see something. I am just not going to split hairs and try to correct a judgment call. I have to know a rule was kicked, not think a rule was kicked. And I believe we can learn from a situation that we talk about in the locker room. Might realize we did not see the entire play as we thought. But the court is not the time to correct everything or we do not need to be out there.

Peace

I know that the BC exception is for the player who is 'receiving' the inbound pass. There may be a case play for this scenario if it was a FC endline throw-in. Since A2 touched it [if A2 was in FC] then A2 could retrieve it in BC without violation. Not sure if that would extend to A3, though. Even if A2 had not controlled it.

??? If, following a throwin, the ball is tipped in the FC towards the BC, any player may retrieve it. No exception is required, as TC is never established in the FC.

Yup! TC is not obtained by a mere touching of the ball.

Team control was never established in the play in question and therefore there can be no backcourt violation.

Four Elements ...
 

The four elements for having a backcourt violation are: there must be team control; the ball must have achieved
frontcourt status; the team in team control must be the last to touch the ball before it goes into the backcourt;
that same team must be the first to touch after the ball has been in the backcourt.

You don't have 100% solid information to give him so there is no reason to confer with him. Talk to him about the elements of the play at halftime or after the game.