The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #46 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 14, 2011, 06:12pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
Right!

The score is always cumulative of the entire game, but the wider the margin, the less likely your calls will affect its outcome (unless your calls are so ridiculously lopsided toward one team that you need to be called on the carpet).
Again, obvious. What's your point?
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #47 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 14, 2011, 06:17pm
Back from the DL
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,540
Aw, man! I thought we were done here.

My initial point to this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmhjordan23 View Post
You hate to call a foul like that to decide the game but it is still a foul.
...was that a single play NEVER decides a game. The accumulation of everything within the game does.
Reply With Quote
  #48 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 14, 2011, 06:20pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
Aw, man! I thought we were done here.

My initial point to this...



...was that a single play NEVER decides a game. The accumulation of everything within the game does.
And you're wrong.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #49 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 14, 2011, 06:24pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 7,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
And you're obviously wrong.
Fixed it for ya.
__________________
Cheers,
mb
Reply With Quote
  #50 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 15, 2011, 10:42am
Back from the DL
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
And you're wrong.
Okay, how so?
Reply With Quote
  #51 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 15, 2011, 10:57am
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
Okay, how so?
I really hate quoting myself, but here's how:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
If A1 misses two FTs that would have tied the game with a minute left, it's a big deal but not insurmountable. If he misses those same game-tying FTs with 1 second left, overcoming becomes even more difficult. If he misses those same game-tying FTs with no time left, the error has now become insurmountable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
The same applies to missed calls or kicked rules. If I wipe off a game-tying score with 60 seconds left; they can possibly recover. If I wipe it with no time left, they cannot. Whether the score got wiped due to a player's error (travel, PC foul, etc) or my error (bad call, poor rules knowledge) makes no difference WRT the ability of the team's ability to recover.
Finally, bob has already stated my position quite accurately:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Please.

If you have a choice (and you really don't), then you'd rather kick a call at the beginning of the game than at the end.

All missed calls affect the game. Those at the end affect the game more.

No one said (I don't think) that missed calls at the beginning don't affect the game.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #52 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 15, 2011, 11:42am
Back from the DL
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
The same applies to missed calls or kicked rules. If I wipe off a game-tying score with 60 seconds left; they can possibly recover. If I wipe it with no time left, they cannot. Whether the score got wiped due to a player's error (travel, PC foul, etc) or my error (bad call, poor rules knowledge) makes no difference WRT the ability of the team's ability to recover.
All true, but the key verb here is decide.

What decides the outcome of the game? The score. How long do we keep score? For the entire game, not just the final seconds.

It's very easy to get caught up in the emotions and drama of the final seconds. I get caught up in them, too. Naturally, it's what people remember.

But, let's put our heads above the emotions (as we officials are expected to do). In the grand scheme of things, the final seconds of a close game don't mean jack squat without everything else that happened during the game's entirety.

"THAT PLAY decided the game" is an emotional statement. When you look at the game objectively, the game is always decided via totality.
Reply With Quote
  #53 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 15, 2011, 11:58am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,183
MANAGING THE LAST FOUR MINUTES OF THE GAME.
In a close competitive contest the last four minutes of the game are the most important. That is not to say that the rest of the game is unimportant, but in a close game everything that happens during the last four minutes is magnified in the eyes of players, coaches and fans. It is at the four minute mark of a close game that everyone involved realizes that each and every play is vital and each and every call made by an official is a potential game decider.

It is vitally important that the officials don’t change their approach to officiating the game during the last four minutes of a close contest. What was or wasn’t a foul in the first four minutes of the game must be called the same during the last four minutes when the game is on the line. In some instances officials tend to call what was a good block in the first quarter a foul at the two- minute mark of the fourth quarter.

Slow down just a little bit more during the last four minutes of a close game. Slow your whistle down when calling fouls and violations. Slow down just a tad when resuming play with a throw-in or free throw. Slow down and be certain that Team A is in the bonus or the double bonus. Slow down when reporting fouls. Slow down and make sure you have communicated all pertinent information to your partner(s) if a technical foul is called.

Anticipate time-outs even better during the last four minutes of the game. Know how many of each length of TO's each team has. Anticipate that a team may want a time out after the other team has made two or three baskets in a row, or when a player is trapped and in danger of having a five second violation called, or when the opposition has scored the tying or go ahead basket with just seconds remaining. Watch the players on their way to the bench after a time out has been called. This is aperiod of the game when emotions run high.

During the last four minutes of the game always make sure both coaches are aware of where the ball will be played in following a time out. Don’t assume the coach knows that the ball is coming in from the sideline, while in fact he is drawing up a play thinking it is coming in from the end line. The C in three and the lead in two should always anticipate a designed play involving a back screen after a time out near the end of the game.

Officials should use the time-outs during the last four minutes of the game just as the teams do. Get together and review the current situation. Which team is ahead? Which teams are in the bonus or double bonus? Who has to foul if they miss the free throw? Always anticipate the possibility of an intentional foul.

Last second plays after a time out can really get officials in hot water if they are not on their toes. Anticipate throws from A1 to A2 along the end line out of bounds. Anticipate the defenders reaching through the boundary line slapping the ball or committing fouls. Be ready for the player throwing the ball in to run along the end line trying to bait the defenders into running through a screen.

The last four minutes of a close game is when officials must work the hardest, get the best looks and use their best judgment. It is the time for the best communication with partners, coaches, players and scorers and timers. It is the time to know which official is ruling on the last shot. It is the time to be ready for anything.
__________________
I gotta new attitude!
Reply With Quote
  #54 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 15, 2011, 12:12pm
Aleve Titles to Others
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: East Westchester of the Southern Conference
Posts: 5,381
Send a message via AIM to 26 Year Gap
Quote:
Originally Posted by tref View Post
MANAGING THE LAST FOUR MINUTES OF THE GAME.
In a close competitive contest the last four minutes of the game are the most important. That is not to say that the rest of the game is unimportant, but in a close game everything that happens during the last four minutes is magnified in the eyes of players, coaches and fans. It is at the four minute mark of a close game that everyone involved realizes that each and every play is vital and each and every call made by an official is a potential game decider.

It is vitally important that the officials don’t change their approach to officiating the game during the last four minutes of a close contest. What was or wasn’t a foul in the first four minutes of the game must be called the same during the last four minutes when the game is on the line. In some instances officials tend to call what was a good block in the first quarter a foul at the two- minute mark of the fourth quarter.

Slow down just a little bit more during the last four minutes of a close game. Slow your whistle down when calling fouls and violations. Slow down just a tad when resuming play with a throw-in or free throw. Slow down and be certain that Team A is in the bonus or the double bonus. Slow down when reporting fouls. Slow down and make sure you have communicated all pertinent information to your partner(s) if a technical foul is called.

Anticipate time-outs even better during the last four minutes of the game. Know how many of each length of TO's each team has. Anticipate that a team may want a time out after the other team has made two or three baskets in a row, or when a player is trapped and in danger of having a five second violation called, or when the opposition has scored the tying or go ahead basket with just seconds remaining. Watch the players on their way to the bench after a time out has been called. This is aperiod of the game when emotions run high.

During the last four minutes of the game always make sure both coaches are aware of where the ball will be played in following a time out. Don’t assume the coach knows that the ball is coming in from the sideline, while in fact he is drawing up a play thinking it is coming in from the end line. The C in three and the lead in two should always anticipate a designed play involving a back screen after a time out near the end of the game.

Officials should use the time-outs during the last four minutes of the game just as the teams do. Get together and review the current situation. Which team is ahead? Which teams are in the bonus or double bonus? Who has to foul if they miss the free throw? Always anticipate the possibility of an intentional foul.

Last second plays after a time out can really get officials in hot water if they are not on their toes. Anticipate throws from A1 to A2 along the end line out of bounds. Anticipate the defenders reaching through the boundary line slapping the ball or committing fouls. Be ready for the player throwing the ball in to run along the end line trying to bait the defenders into running through a screen.

The last four minutes of a close game is when officials must work the hardest, get the best looks and use their best judgment. It is the time for the best communication with partners, coaches, players and scorers and timers. It is the time to know which official is ruling on the last shot. It is the time to be ready for anything.
Has your player stepped inbounds in order to do this?
__________________
Never hit a piñata if you see hornets flying out of it.
Reply With Quote
  #55 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 15, 2011, 12:15pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
All true, but the key verb here is decide.

What decides the outcome of the game? The score. How long do we keep score? For the entire game, not just the final seconds.

It's very easy to get caught up in the emotions and drama of the final seconds. I get caught up in them, too. Naturally, it's what people remember.

But, let's put our heads above the emotions (as we officials are expected to do). In the grand scheme of things, the final seconds of a close game don't mean jack squat without everything else that happened during the game's entirety.

"THAT PLAY decided the game" is an emotional statement. When you look at the game objectively, the game is always decided via totality.
Good grief, don't throw the emotion canard at me, it's not going to get you anywhere but ignored due to lack of relevance. Here's the statement you made with which I initially disagreed:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
In a close game, something you may or may not have called in the first quarter affects the game's outcome every bit as something you may or may not have called in the last minute.
That's simply not true, but I think you've sufficiently backtracked from it and fallen back to the word "decide." While a single play may not have "decided" the game, it can certainly affect the game. And the significance of that impact is inversely proportional to the time remaining in the game at the time of the event. That's what I've been arguing.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #56 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 15, 2011, 12:21pm
We don't rent pigs
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,627
This thread kinda warped over time, did it not? The OP, I think, recognized the relative importance of the final seconds in the scheme of things. He also feels, apparently, that a bad no-call is better than a bad call. I would agree. But what I get out of the OP is that he is asking if he should change his standard of making a call in the final seconds to help avoid making a bad call in this circumstance. I think most of us agree the answer to this is no.
__________________
I swear, Gus, you'd argue with a possum.
It'd be easier than arguing with you, Woodrow.


Lonesome Dove
Reply With Quote
  #57 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 15, 2011, 12:29pm
Aleve Titles to Others
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: East Westchester of the Southern Conference
Posts: 5,381
Send a message via AIM to 26 Year Gap
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmhjordan23 View Post
I know the philosophy is that a foul in the 1st QT is a foul in the 4th QT. 8th grade boys, 3rd place game tied with 5 sec left. Team A drives the endline (not very hard) and team B was in legal guarding position until he gave one of those hip checks. In the bonus, hits 1 and team goes on to win by 1. Coach didn't say much about it, but the fans were definitely on us. Saying that was weak. You hate to call a foul like that to decide the game but it is still a foul. I know the proper thing is to call it (my partners call), but would anybody let that go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
This thread kinda warped over time, did it not? The OP, I think, recognized the relative importance of the final seconds in the scheme of things. He also feels, apparently, that a bad no-call is better than a bad call. I would agree. But what I get out of the OP is that he is asking if he should change his standard of making a call in the final seconds to help avoid making a bad call in this circumstance. I think most of us agree the answer to this is no.
Any foul call in the dying seconds is going to elicit fan response and bench response in a close game. I know it is HTBT, but the description in the OP matches up to: blowing the whistle = good call, right call; and, not blowing the whistle = choking or swallowing the whistle.
__________________
Never hit a piñata if you see hornets flying out of it.
Reply With Quote
  #58 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 15, 2011, 12:31pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,262
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
This thread kinda warped over time, did it not? The OP, I think, recognized the relative importance of the final seconds in the scheme of things. He also feels, apparently, that a bad no-call is better than a bad call. I would agree. But what I get out of the OP is that he is asking if he should change his standard of making a call in the final seconds to help avoid making a bad call in this circumstance. I think most of us agree the answer to this is no.
A bad no-call is just as bad as a bad call. Either way you've kicked it.

Your standard for fouls needs to be the same from tip to final horn. The idea that a correctly called foul takes the game away from the players needs to be rejected for the mistaken belief that it is.
Reply With Quote
  #59 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 15, 2011, 12:36pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastshire View Post
A bad no-call is just as bad as a bad call. Either way you've kicked it.
Absolutely!
__________________
I gotta new attitude!
Reply With Quote
  #60 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 15, 2011, 12:51pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 17,725
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastshire View Post
A bad no-call is just as bad as a bad call. Either way you've kicked it.
Disagree.

It's better to miss something that happened than to "see" something that didn't.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What happened to the T to start the game--NCAA Game thread? w_sohl Basketball 1 Tue Mar 10, 2009 01:32pm
Jordan's 63 pt game - Game 2 of 1st round 1986 Eastern Conference Playoffs Cajun Reff Basketball 15 Fri Mar 07, 2008 09:56am
Twenty technicals in one game - all for delay of game! Mark Padgett Basketball 14 Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:55pm
Next game teams warming up on field during game reccer Softball 6 Mon Jul 16, 2007 03:00pm
Cursed Game: 3 Injuries, 2 ambulance calls, 1 game wadeintothem Softball 3 Mon Oct 16, 2006 04:48pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:46pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1