Lets talk about 5 seconds....NF Please

Rule Book 4-10 "A closely-guarded situation occurs when a player in control of the ball in his/her team's front court, is GUARDED by an opponent who is within 6 feet of the player who is holding or dribbling the ball."

Rule Book 4-23-2 "To obtain an initial legal guarding position: a. The guard must have both feet touching the floor. b. The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent.

Rule Book 4-23-3 "After the initial guarding position is obtained: a. The guard is not required to have either or both feet on the floor or continue facing the opponent.

So....A1 inbounds the ball in the back court to A2 after a made basket. B is pressing, B2 picks up A2 never acheiving both feet on the floor but is guarding A2 like white on rice. A2 gets the ball over the time line and then proceeds to dribble around without stopping or shooting while being guarded by B2. Based on what I read, I have nothing. Comments appreciated.

Or

Same play except B2 is standing with both feet on the floor waiting to pickup A2 in the FC. Once A2 is in the FC within 6' of B2, based on 4-10, I am reading that B2 has A2 legally guarded and I should pick up a count. Comments appreciated.

Thanks

Larks
VIT

I don't make such a sticky point about it. If he is maintaining six feet and moving backwards, when he crosses that midcourt line, I switch from my 10 second count to the five second count. You can argue semantics but the coaches see the count and they know when I reach five there will be a whistle and the only thing they will argue is who is guarding(switch in NF maintain count) or your count was too fast. Either way they won't say anything about initial two feet on the floor unless when have a crash. If you call PC then you will have to defend yourself. If block you usually won't have much problem.

Larks:

Technically I suppose this is true however, I would "have something" simply because if my only explanation for why I have no 5 second count on the dribbler (in the frontcourt of course) is that a defender is chopping/sliding/moving his/her feet and doesn't have both feet on the ground, well let's just say I might have a tough time selling that call to B's coach.

5 second
 

When A1 is in back court there is no closely guarded count. But when A1 crosses into front court you pick up your 5 second closely guarded count as long as B2 maintains his closely guarded position. Which means that B2 may move to do this. To show the coach that you have changed your count you should switch hands. This lets the coach know that you have switched from your 10 second count to your 5 second count. This will help keep the coach off you. If A1 stops his dribble then you switch back to your other hand for the 5 second closely guarded count for holding the ball.

I agree with FCE. The important thing is the visible count which lets everyone in the gym know that you are noting and counting towards 5 seconds. The semantics of the defense having assumed a true initial guarding position is only of tertiary importance. Also remember that defenders can switch off and the count continues as long as at least one of them maintains a distance within 6 feet.

"Legal Guarding Position" is not equal to "guarding".

The former is relavent only to contact situations. The latter can be achieved without being in a "LGP" by forcing the opponent to stop, turn, make mistakes, etc. all without contact. Guarding is putting pressure on the offense, without contact, by being where they want to go or by forcing them to go where you want them to go.

So, a 5 second count can and should occur when the defense is applying pressure (closely guarded). The threshold of pressure is defined as 6 ft. A player farther away is not really applying pressure. A player within 6 ft. may or may not be applying pressure, even if they are technically in a "LGP". They may be guarding another player other than the ball handler and just happen to be within 6 and in a "LGP".

Again, you can be guarding without being in a legal guarding position. You can be in a legal guarding position with guarding.

Larks, the closely guarded rule and the rule on initial legal guarding position are in the book for different reasons. The legal guarding position rule where the initial legal guarding position must be established only comes into play when there is a contact foul so that one can determine if it is a block or charge. I don't believe that anything in the rule book says anything about legal guarding position needing to be established before a 5 second count can be started.

Ralph,check out casebook play 9.10.1SitC.To establish a guarding position to start the 5sec. count,the defensive player must be within 6 feet,have both feet initially on the floor,and be facing the opponent.

Larks can you Guard a player without the ball?
What was the positioning of A2 and B2 when the ball was handed to the thrower?

My cases were hypothetical. Good feedback though guys. I am getting hung on a bit on establishing legal guarding position in order to get a 5 count going. Anything further you can provide would be great. JR, thanks for the case book ref.

Larks
VIT

The point of my questions was to get you to look at
4-23-5 in your sit B2 probably established ILGP at the onset of the throw in prior to getting the ball.