I've seen it all
 

I am waiting on my V games to start and watching the end of the JVB game. I am standing on the corner of the endline, the gym is packed and loud. Team B is down 2 points with the ball. They hit a "3" with 12 seconds left to take a one point lead. Team A is bringing the ball up court, and when A2 gets the ball to midcourt, Coach A is frantically trying to call a TO. Neither partner is cognizant of this, and are too intent on watching only the game. Coach A, in an effort to get the attention of the Lead official 15 feet away, rushes down the sideline to the endline where the L is stationed. He is screaming for a TO.
You guessed it....**WHACK**. The rest is history. Team B makes both free throws and wins the game.

Let this be a lesson to younger officials. Always expect a time out to be requested in these situations. The only reason that coach A was on the court was to request a time out because the officials were too tunnel-visioned to recognize the initial request. Don't penalize a coach merely for being on the court. If he is coaching his kids and not in the way, let him do that. This was a travesty and a rare occasion where the officials determined the outcome of the game. Yes, I did talk to the JV crew about this, and hopefully they never make a similar mistake.:mad:

It also should be a lesson to the coach. He has 5 players on the court who should also be aware, and should see his request and relay it to the official. Many players now seem to not be aware that they, too, may make the timeout request.

Why should the coach depend on getting a player's attention in order to get the time out when he is supposed to have the right to request one directly? It can't hurt to get the players to do that but their first priority is actually playing the game, not relaying messages between the coach and the officials when the officials are not paying attention., For such a situation to end in a T is not right. By the book, yes, but going by the book would have also led to a timeout before it got to that point.

I'm against the T here also. The officials should have gotten it, I agree, but they didn't. Their first priority is also the playing of the game, not the coach. For these reasons, the players should also be aware of the situation, and be quick to pick up and help the request be heard.

I saw a similar situation last night in the BV that I was watching. Coach ran down almost to the endline screaming time out. Reff granted the time out. Other coach was screaming for a technical since he was way out of his box. No T was given and rightfully so. Friend sitting next to me asked what I would do and I said exactly what was done. This is good game management in my opinion. When a close game gets down to the last minute or so, I go around to my partners and remind them to watch the coaches requesting time out.

So long as the rule book is reads the way it does, the HEAD COACH has the RIGHT to request a time out. As time goes by, fewer and fewer PLAYERS ever call time out. It is incumbent upon the officials to be AWARE of the situation.

I do NOT mean to imply that all three or both officials should be fixated on the coaches' boxes during the game, BUT, game situations should cause one of the officials (typically NOT the official with the ball in his primary) to glance at the attacking team bench during these situations.

A glance (by ONE of the officials) takes under a tenth of a second. Failing to do so can ruin an otherwise great game.

Back in the Day -- a Juraissic Moment
 

Agree heartily that officials must be situationally aware of those likely occasions of timeout requests. that's a right afforded under the constitution.
This did, however, bring back memories of the good old days when our coaches taught us those crucial situations in which we, as players on the floor, should actually--get this--request a timeout ourselves. And we did from time to time.
I know, I know. That's about as rare today as a kid getting up out of his chair and walking across the room to change the television channel dial and adjust the tinfoil on the rabbit ears.
I guess Chris Webber didn't help the cause any, either.

I can't believe one of the officials didn't glance over in anticipation of a TO being requested. We can't read coach's mind but if we are officiating ball we should have some knowledge of ball strategy - which with 12 seconds to go and down by a basket you can bet the coach is going to call a TO so be expecting it

No way in the world would I give a T in the scenario

Officials do not have to be aware of anything with a coach during active play. It is the team's responsibility only to worry about getting the official's attention. If they cannot do that, shame on them. I am not looking at any coach for a timeout request and never will. I only care about what is taking place on the court. If I hear and see a request I will grant it. Too much is going on that I will miss if I pay that close attention to a coach. Coaches need to train their players to repeat or respond to their requests. It is funny that when a player gets in some kind of trouble they request timeouts, so why are coaches not teaching their players to respond to them yelling something. Half the time I cannot hear a coach if the crowd is really big. Sorry, this is all on the teams, the officials can only respond to what they know. And if they are focused on the court, they are not going to always know who is asking for a timeout.

Peace

Well I disagree. While my focus is on the floor it takes one quick glance to the bench. I don't do it except near the end of a close game. It does not take my attention off the game

I'll have to disagree with you there JRut. Yes it's the team's job to get our attention, but we have to have good game awareness to know when a timeout is going to be granted. An off official, especially opposite table should be able to glance away for a beat to catch the coach's request.

Like it was said earlier, it takes about a tenth of a second to glance over to the coach and see what he/she might be requesting. Also, smart officials should know when a timeout might be requested... whether it be a scoring run by the other team, after a made basket late in a close game, or a trap in the corner, etc. A good official should know the situation that the game is in, and be ready to respond to a coach's request for a TO.

I will continue to glance over at a coach while there is a live ball. It makes for a smoother game when the coach decides to request a TO.

bingo
 

Precisely. It is not our job to help coach the team, our responsibility is on the floor.

If it's a timeout situation, every one of the coach's players should have known it. There have been games that devolved into controversy when an assistant requested the TO and it was granted.

Let me ask this, though. What do you do when a coach says "I want a timeout if it's a make" prior to a free-throw? Do you wait to hear it, listen for it, or treat it as having been requested.

"May I Take Your Order Please?"
 

"You bet, coach. When I glance over and see you request it, I'll give it."

+1 and I'm listening extra sharply at this point to hear for the squall of "time out"

I communicate with the coach and say " Coach I will look at you to confirm the timeout" 9 out of 10 they shake they head in agreement.

OK, you glance at the court and when you miss some extra cirricular activity on the court, then come talk to me when then talk to me why you missed that play. A timeout is one of the last things I am going to worry about.

I can have good awareness and still not know a coach is calling for a timeout. Again, the play on the court is the most important thing to me and always will be. When this rule was changed this was made very clear to all of us (in my area) what our responsibilities were and it was not to take our attention off the court. And if the coaches are not smart enough to get their players to react, then that is their problem.

Peace

I do not like the "prior to action request" that coaches make. I have asked them to still make the request so it will be seen on tape. But I have kind of backed off of that. The problem is sometimes their requests are "after this FT" but they are usually reasonable.

Peace

This was a JV game. The game officials were not likely seasoned veterans. So, they learned a lesson in game management, and hopefully will become better officials. Likely it was a crew of two and in a loud gym and a close game, it is very easy to get caught up in the action.

Knowing the situation is important and as soon as the basket was made, a quick glance by the new lead if he was opposite table or new trail if he was opposite even before the ball hit the floor would have prevented the coach's actions from escalating.

That said, players should be taught by coaches to recognize when one is being requested. My last game had two player requested time outs. The best game of the year had a player trapped near the division line call for one with 6.1 seconds left in a tie game. Saw that coach Friday and told him it was a heads up play by his player.

I am not taking my eyes off a tight match-up to look at a coach for a time out request. I am looking there after a made basket when there is a run by the opponents or in an end of game situation as described in the OP. In 3 man, it is MUCH easier to do, however.

What's A Watch ???
 

Freddy: I hope you realize that a large percentage of the Forum membership has absolutely no idea of what you're talking about.

Note: My daughter is living on student loans while she puts herself through medical school. She can't afford cable television. She asked me if there was any way that she could use "bunny ears".

Et tu, Brute
 

Yeah, I might have a few more miles on the odometer, but you don't have to be an Environmental Chemical Analyst about it. :D

Sorry, was looking for the first opportunity to use that one.

:confused:Call me a T.O. checker. I will say that it is easier to do in 3 person crew then 2 but it was something that was drilled in my head early on in my officiating career. It seems counter-intuitive that we are talking about how we deal with coaches during every other part of the game when they are doing what they shouldn't be doing, yet when they are doing something they are by rule allowed to do, some are saying we should ignore them b/c there is too much happening ON the court.
And the point that it is a coach's responsibility to get the officials attention that they want a T.O. would seem to cover this coach running down onto the court to do just that. If the officials aren't looking, what are the supposed to do in a loud, cramped gym?

Time Out, Time Out, Time Out ...
 

Veteran officials know when to look for timeout requests. A coach watches his team, ahead, or behind, on the wrong end of a 12-2 run? Guess who we're watching? A team behind by a few points, in the last minutes of a close game, with timeouts left, that probably wants to stop the clock? Guess who we're watching? A player is on the floor with the ball, and is about to be surrounded by some defenders? Guess who we're watching? A player is about to be trapped in the corner? Guess who we're watching?

Now, granted, sometimes both officials must be watching the players, but even then, especially the official off the ball, should try to take a peek at the bench during these situations.

Have a player call the TO, of course.

I don't think there is any debate that good officiating demands that an official be aware of typical TO situations, and pay a little more attention to see if a coach wants one.

However, the TO request is just that - a request. While good officials will be cognizant that the request might be coming, good coaching will realize that there are situations where you might not be able to get the officials attention as quickly as you like, and it behooves you to train your team what to do in those situations. Whether that be a loud gym in a critical moment where the officials are dialed in on the play, or just poor or inexperienced officials who may not be paying attention.

First of all, I agree with posters who say that this play was handled incorrectly by the refs. The coach should have been given his time out and the game should have moved on.

My point is that there are certain times that it is impossible for the refs to grant a timeout to a coach. In two person mechanics there are times when it should not happen. When the ball is opposite the coaches area, and in second half instances it would be in the coaches defensive half, the trail if the opponent has the ball or lead if the coaches team has the ball will have his back to the coach and in no way can grant the time out unless he thinks it is okay to turn completely away from the action which is not usually a good move. The lead will most likely have on ball responsibilties so he would need to take his eyes away from the ball. In other words there are situations in two person mechanics where it can be nearly impossible to grant the timeout to the coach. There needs to be a lull in the action where it is okay for one of the refs to visually see the coach request the time out. This is in the case where the noise allows the refs to hear the request.

I am in the camp who believes that players should be taught that they can also be an extension of the coach and relay his timeout request to the refs.

I just witnessed this scenario at GV high school game. The coach was requesting a time out and a player was doing this task of relaying and requesting the time out but by the time the player made the requested, the ref was focussed on the coach who was far away and not the player who was right next to the ref. It was kind of funny but it shows that the refs are also not used to taking timeouts from players but only from coaches.

For those that insist it's the officials' fault for not watching for the coach's TO request, I have an example of why we shouldn't always watch. A few years ago, late in the game, team A has a small lead, but B is closing fast. B just scores, and sets up the press on the inbounds. I'm new lead, opposite table. A has trouble bringing the ball up, so I start watching A's coach for A TO request, as I know we are getting close to the 10-sec. limit. Sure enough, I finally see A's coach signal and yell for the TO, so I blew the whistle and granted it. Unfortunately, as I looked back to see where the ball would be put in play, it was going through B's basket! B has stolen the ball and had shot it, and I had no clue whether A still had possession at the time of the request, because I was too busy "being aware" of the coach. After a conversation with my partners, we agreed B had stolen the ball, but the whistle for the TO happened before the basket. So, no basket, A still wanted and got the TO, and B got the ball after the TO.

About 2-3 years ago, I believe the NFHS came out with an article in their pre-season magazine covering this very topic; it may have even been a POI. Basically, while it did acknowledge officials need to be aware of situations where a team and coach may request a TO, the article was directed at coaches, explaining that the officials' first responsibility is the action on the court, and there may indeed be times where the officials may not hear a proper request. Even if the request is heard, the officials need to verify it actually was the HC that made the request, and also verify that it was requested at the proper time (such as player control on the floor). If those things cannot be verified, the officials cannot grant the TO, no matter how loud the coach yells for it.

I don't know if the T in the OP was warranted or not. But I don't blame the officials for not hearing or being aware of the request if the noise level was high, and there was other immediate action on the court.

I was watching a prelim game a couple of weeks ago, and A scored in a situation where you "knew" B would want a TO. Both officials looked at Coach B, who did nothing. Then, just as his team inbounded the ball, he started to request the TO. By then, everyone's attention was on the game and he didn't get his TO until several seconds had passed -- maybe 5 seconds, out of the 8 or so remaining.

So, it's also on the coach to request the TO in a timely manner. And, as long as they want to keep the right to request it, they need to accept the fact that it's not always going to be granted as quickly as they want.

I had a similar situation M&M and which is why I also do not take my attention from the floor. And in my case it was in dispute what if the team calling had possession. And it was not just me that had doubt, the other coach want off about the situation.

This is why you do not take your eyes off the court and it is on the coach to get your attention by his voice, actions or coaching of his/her players.

Peace

This is about all that needs to be said.....

Very astute, Mr. M.

POE #3 from the 2008-09 NFHS rulebook on TIMEOUTS:

The proper granting of time-outs continues to be of great concern. During live ball situations, it is imperative that officials ensure player control before granting a time-out request. Additionally, officials must ensure that the time-out request is coming from a player or the head coach of the team in control. Coaches must realize that officials have other responsibilities to the game that require their immediate attention. As a result, coaches must understand that just because a time-out was requested does not mean that time-out will be granted.

You are wise beyond your years.

Physical years, or mental years?

If you mean mental years, it's a fairly low standard.

As Astute As A Border Collie ...
 

Dog years.