Deaf School Situation
 

Well had the game and a weird situation. As I check the books before tip off I notice on the visiting teams book that they have 2 names without numbers. I ask and they inform me that they are managers. So I instruct them to be taken off/scratched out as they are not players and simply managers. Well at halftime of the game the visiting team's coach catches our crew as we are walking out. He says he is going to add a player and asks about when the technical will be issued. We tell him and proceed over to opposite table at halfcourt. We go over get the okay from the books, they have added the "player" and I explain the situation to the deaf coach. As we are getting ready for the tech shots the coach realizes who is being added and doesn't like it. I see her reaction and realize that something is not right. I go over and ask the coach what player he added and why. He says "I need depth so the player I added is our manager". The manager who's name was probably in the book and one of the ones scratched out to start the game. He had given his manager #21's jersey who was an injured player and who was listed in the book as # 21. I said we are not allowing it and we proceed to start the half without the technicals as we would normally. Anybody have anything similar before?

The whole problem was his explanation at first he just said add a player, then it was a manager, and the scorebook individual said it was a cheerleader in her opinion. All in all this coach didn't know basketball as he asked how many timeouts he gets and if his players could call timeouts on the court. He even designated 2 players to call the timeouts and told me who they were. It was a interesting night to say the least.

Why? Who are you to say who can and can't play?

Don't ever try and dictate who can and can't play. Being a manager doesn't make them ineligible, though they need to have a uniform with a number. Whether they are a manager or not should have no bearing on this situation. Properly equipped and entered, according to rule 3, is really the only prerequisite.

One, I based it on 21 already being in the book. Two, what if she wasn't a manager? Be he said she was. She could be a 20 year old college student who is playing for Duke for all I know. If she was in uniform it is one thing. But street clothes, heck no she's not coming in my game

That's crap. For all you know, one of the starters could be a 20 year old Duke student.

The bottom line is you have no authority to prevent the name from being added to the book and from using the jersey of an injured player is no longer avaialble to play. If the coach tells you he wants to add a name and change a jersey number in the book, you charge the technical foul and do it.

You have no rule backing for what you did. You were wrong.

You can't dictate who plays or not. If that player happened to be a college player, then the opposing team would have an easy grounds for appeal and possible forfeiture by the other team. Again this would be a league issue and not an officiating issue.

4-33-4. She's not coming in unless she is in uniform in my game.

She wasn't wearing a uniform? I thought she got #21's?

As someone else said, you have no idea about the other players either.

BTW, it is not your game - it is a game that is to be played by the rules and your only job is to ensure the game is played according to those rules. For the most part, you have no authority beyond what is set out in the rule book. You position does not allow you to determine who can and can't play beyond what is described in the rules that you are there to enforce.

Sorry but you blew this one IMHO. I don't like the coach doing this but how I feel about it isn't what matters -- it is whether it breaks the rules or not. I can not think of any rule that would be broken based on what you say occurred.

if the coach knows the rules, you may get a call from your assigner about this one.

She wanted too. The girl wasnt even on the bench and was in street clothes. According to 4-33-4, "A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player"

Why yes a manager is bench personnel, but she was not a team member by this rule. Unless I am misreading, which I could be. And is it legal for her to grab someone's jersey who is already listed in the book as that number?

You have got to be kidding to even bold that. My game, as in the one's I am in.

I think you mean 4-34-4. This states "A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player". She was on the bench and was going to be wearing an uniform so what is the issue?

As long as she's added to the book and she's given a number, she's a team member eligible to play. Also there's nothing that say a coach can not change a player's number. They must notify the official scorer and the referee. Only one T will be issued though.

Why do people come here and post their self-righteous garbage about how great they are when, in reality, they're f-ing it up for the rest of us. :confused:

By your logic:
The senior starting point guard -with a free ride TO Duke- arrives at the school during halftime (after attending her grandmother's funeral), dons a uniform, gets added to the book, is assessed a T, and is then PREVENTED to enter the game by .... by .... you.

Seriously? :mad::rolleyes:

Can she take #21's? Who is already listed ast 21?

I don't see why not. All you would have to do is ensure that the old 21 has her number changed in the book.

Yes, she can. The coach told you 21 was injured and that the manager would be taking that uniform. You add the name, give the 21 to the new player and assess the T. The injured player is not returning.

Okay. The situation seemed unfair to me. In allowing the team to add a manager. One of our veteran guys here said it should not be allowed also. But everyones comments here are appreciated. Thanks

Just because a guy is a veteran doesn't mean he knows the rules well. I worked with a veteran one night - he was the R and I was U1. Had I not known the rules that night we would have had a disaster because a situation came up that he did not know how to handle but it was a textbook case. Our assigner and supervisor was advised of the situation and he found out that the R didn't know the rule - how embarrassing!! (I am scheduled to call with him this week - I will be the R this time even thought he as several years of calling games on me (we are assigned the R position usually due to experience - the most experienced get the R slot but obviously not always). So just because a guy has many years of "experience" doesn't mean he really knows the game that well.

Very true. This was a first situation like this for me. Never heard of anything like this to go by or help out on how to handle this so I had to react in the moment to go with it or not. And I chose to not. But thanks for the advice and insight!

Not to pile on but......I'm gonna pile on.

We as officials don't get to call the game according to what we think might be fair or not. Like 'em or not, we're supposed to follow the rules. In this situation, you went directly against NFHS rules and made up your very own rules. That's always wrong.

I hope the comments that you got here were more than appreciated. I hope they'll stop you from doing anything like that in the future.

admittedly extreme devil's advocacy: let's say the coach gave the jersey to what appeared to be a 26-year old woman. or a mom from the crowd. or a man. (I'm picturing Coolidge from the White Shadow squeezing into that #21 shirt.:))

It's still not our call, right? We just have the book changed and assess the T. If the other coach wants to file a protest with the league, that's his/her business.

Because we're never in the business of verifying school IDs, driver's licenses, or--gulp--primary sex characteristics, right?...if it did come to that, though, whose purview would include the locker room peek? The R or the U?;)

I would like to state the point a bit differently: you didn't know the rule, so you guessed based on your own personal sense of fairness. I think some of your defensiveness here comes from feeling that folks' comments were personal attacks on you or your sense of fairness.

Nobody's attacking you personally. They're just insisting that you need to follow the rule and not rely on your sense of fairness (and I think you've gotten that now). And that means knowing the rule -- in advance.

You had a chance at half time of your game to review the substitution rules: that would have been the time to get ready for any book weirdness in the second half.

The other thing to do is to keep engaging in rules discussions on the forum. A lot of people reading this thread will remember it and benefit from learning this rule. They should thank you!

Right, we have no responsibility as to the eligibility of a player to participate in a game. That is strictly a league or state issue. If they are properly dressed and listed in the book, they get to play. The state can decide if they used ineligible players.

I understand the OP's confusion on the number change. The way to view it is that you are just changing two players' numbers. The new player to 21 and the old 21 to whatever number the coach might want to give you (or maybe none at all but it would be cleaner to have one).