Tim -

There is strength in numbers. Here is what I would have done. Have my partner and myself refuse to officiate the game if this coach is allowed to continue coaching for the tournament. Speak to the rest of the refs and get solidarity on this issue. Basically, refuse to officiate any more games until this coach is banned.

This ought to put THEM (the tournament coordinators)between a rock and a hard place, instead of putting YOU between a rock and a hard place.

hope everyone is having a greatday! i have been refereeing aau tournaments now for a few years and i love them, butt these coaches out there are taking the fun away from the game the kids age from 13 to 18 and they come from all over the world, and they are the pick of the crop! they cuss at the kids tell them how bad they are and then when there up by 65 points scream at a kid for missing a layup. my friends had a situation last friday night team up by 45 with 4 minutes to go coach is screaming calling the refs blind because they are not getting any calls. finally they get fed up double t him. kick him out of the gym, and guess whos coaching and screaming about 8 hours later you guessed it the coach who had just been kicked off the court a few hours earlier, now im working with one of the guys that had given him the double t earlier. we couldnt believe it. so we called the gym rep over explained the situation and she made a call and it was ok for him to coach because there were no bylaws stating he couldnt coach the next game after being kicked out. why do we ref? after we kick someone out for excessive demostration he gets too come back in and work the next game. its all about the money these teams pay top dollar too get in these tournaments and thats whats its all about. its not about basketball.

I had a similar situation about 3 years ago in an AAU tournament. I teed a coach in a game, then my partner teed him and tossed him. He came back that afternoon to coach again. I had the same partner. We discussed it and decided that the guy had enough warnings and that we would be quick with the tees.

About 30 seconds into the game, he said something to my partner. My partner declared it a flagrant technical and tossed him.

The next day, his team played two games. I didn't have either of the games, but he wasn't in the gym for either of them. I don't know what caused that, either the administration took action, or he decided he was hurting his team and stayed away.

On second thought, the latter couldn't be true. That would require some intelligence on the part of a coach.

This is an interesting subject and one with which I could definitely use some advice. I am a first year female official. This year I worked about 30 girls' parochial grade school (5th through 8th grades) games, and a few high school girls' scrimmages and a CYO game. In general, it was a good first year. I made plenty of mistakes and learned much from everyone of them. I worked with some real good people who went out of their way to help me learn. Anyway, to the point...I worked this post-season, girls' high school tournament last friday night. One of the coaches was brutal. He screamed at me and my partner (also a woman) the entire game. Maybe it's a lack of confidence at this point in time, but I really didn't have the guts to boot this guy out of the gym. After the game, he bellowed across the floor to my partner "YOU SHOULD NOT BE OFFICIATING!" Is there any advice you can give to a newcomer like myself with regards to "handling" this type of coach? Do you try to "talk" to him to get him to calm down? How much is too much? I've worked very hard to study and know the rules thoroughly this year. I think despite some erroneous judgement calls, I've done an adequate job. Several coaches this year complimented me...I was stunned!!! Thanks for your help in advance...I look forward to reading your replies!

Several things. 1) if you are going to believe the coach who tells you, "you did a good job" then you have to believe the coach who says, "you did a bad job". Which is OK. you are going to have good and bad games. 2) if the coach has a legitimate question, then try to answer with a max of three words. so, practice. 3) treat all coaches with respect. 4) Find your limit and when a coach yells so everyone can here it, give him the stop sign, tell your partnes he has been warned. Next time he yells give him a T. remember a T is just another foul. Team shoots 2 shots and the game goes on. Studies say 96% of the time, coaches knew the T was coming. good luck.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jackgil:
Tim -

There is strength in numbers. Here is what I would have done. Have my partner and myself refuse to officiate the game if this coach is allowed to continue coaching for the tournament. Speak to the rest of the refs and get solidarity on this issue. Basically, refuse to officiate any more games until this coach is banned.

This ought to put THEM (the tournament coordinators)between a rock and a hard place, instead of putting YOU between a rock and a hard place.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I should preface my remarks by saying 1) I was not there and do not know how badly this coach behaved (and some can be awful) 2) I accept the premise that this coach was way out of line in the game that he was ejected. 3) I usually agree with what most of you experienced refs say, particularly with regard to game management and dealing with problem situations.

However . . . this is one of those cases where I think you need to deal with the rules and not write them on the fly. This coach may have learned (probably not), may have had a bad day/game, etc. If the league or tournament does not have a suspension policy based on ejection from a game, it is not the place of the referees to stage a walkout. Ref the game, T him up if he is out of line, use your preventive officiating upfront by warning both coaches about zero tolerance for excessive abuse. No need to reference specific cases, just say there have been problems with some teams/coaches and you are on the lookout and will not tolerate that type of behavior. Document all extreme behavior and deal with the coach's association in an appropriate manner.

In addition - Lobby the association to change its policies for ejections. Refuse to ref future tournaments if adequate safeguards are not in place. But do not forsake the responsibility that you accepted when your association agreed to ref the tournament under the rules governing that competition.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by doghead:
This is an interesting subject and one with which I could definitely use some advice. I am a first year female official. This year I worked about 30 girls' parochial grade school (5th through 8th grades) games, and a few high school girls' scrimmages and a CYO game. In general, it was a good first year. I made plenty of mistakes and learned much from everyone of them. I worked with some real good people who went out of their way to help me learn. Anyway, to the point...I worked this post-season, girls' high school tournament last friday night. One of the coaches was brutal. He screamed at me and my partner (also a woman) the entire game. Maybe it's a lack of confidence at this point in time, but I really didn't have the guts to boot this guy out of the gym. After the game, he bellowed across the floor to my partner "YOU SHOULD NOT BE OFFICIATING!" Is there any advice you can give to a newcomer like myself with regards to "handling" this type of coach? Do you try to "talk" to him to get him to calm down? How much is too much? I've worked very hard to study and know the rules thoroughly this year. I think despite some erroneous judgement calls, I've done an adequate job. Several coaches this year complimented me...I was stunned!!! Thanks for your help in advance...I look forward to reading your replies!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
doghead dont get discouraged this is not an easy sport too officiate everything happens in the blink of an eye. positioning and movement is everything out there, keep up the good work. when dealing with coaches im consistent, if they get out of line i will let them know we are not having it! after i do my pregame i call both coaches over and tell them too shake hands and give them the low down. im the official and your the coach so let us do our job and we will let you do yours and this is your warning, t's will be accessed accordingly after the jump ball lets have a good game. and they love it, i have never given a coach a T that didnt deserve it. if you would like to email and ask questions my addy is [email protected]
tim

Coach -

I like my way better. It makes a statement and will change the tournament's philosophy pronto. I am too busy a person to do all the things you are suggesting. You do it your way, I'll do it mine.

I can't say I'm in favor of revolting, but I got to thinking that the AAU must have some rule or regulation covering this. I checked the aau web site and found in the AAU regulations or bylaws or whatever they call it; if a player is ejected, he/she is to sit out the next game. Curiously, I could not find any regulation listed if a coach is ejected. I did submit the question to the AAU, I will update everyone when I hear back. I think I am going to print off a copy of these regs to take with me from now on just in case; there is some good info in there.

If you want a good laugh go to the aau site to read the code of conduct for BB coaches, I hurt myself laughing.

I don't care if you take action after the tournament in any of the ways I suggested. But I feel that if you have agreed to referee under the terms of the tournament's rules, the coach's behavior better be completely beyond the pale to back out of that commitment. This is not the first coach that has excessively demonstrated his displeasure and will not be the last. I don't think that telling a tournament when it should suspend a coach is an appropriate action for a referee except 1) in advance of the tournament when you ar dealing with the general case or 2) under extreme conditions that could not be foreseen. I agree that these guys should be suspended for excessive demonstration at kids games, but that is a league/tournament issue. If they don't put it in the league/tournament rules in advance, the officials are sometimes in a bind as to handling these situations. This is especially true of those on the courts, who frequently are not empowered as policy makers. Voice your opinion to the powers that be, then do the game. Again, you can deal with the coach with preventive officiating up front and with Ts during the game. Warn the coach in advance, and kick him out again when he acts up. But ref the game as you agreed to do when you accepted the offer to ref that tournament. And never again if they won't change the rules next time.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brian Watson:
if a player is ejected, he/she is to sit out the next game. Curiously, I could not find any regulation listed if a coach is ejected. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As a coach, I find it troubling that we are more tolerant of grownups who behave like children than the children who behave like children. If players on the court behaved like many coaches, most of them would be T'd up in a heartbeat, and soon ejected.

Its always an option not to work a game. If i T a coach, it over at games end. Next game i have him, we start fresh. Thats not to say i won't learn from previous meetings. I will always give benifit of doubt, coaches livelihood depends on W/L record. They spend all week preparing for that game, lets aleast go into the game to give our best without prejudice.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tim harris:
this is your warning, t's will be accessed accordingly after the jump ball tim [/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why wait until after the jump ball? I rang a coach up during a pregame once.

There aren't many cliche rules I live by, but one is to honor my commitments. If I've committed to the game, barring illness or injury (and often even with them), I'm reffing it. I believe the original poster was correct to express concern to the tournament director, then to do the game. A letter of concern about the rule to the AAU is also totally legit.

Once the game is on, it's a normal game, and if this coach is as much of a butthead as he sounds like, he won't last long anyway. Run it as usual: a stop sign, first T, second T, ejection. There, he's gone. Problem solved.

Paul

I hoped the AAU would be more supportive...

According to the head of AAU boys basketball, because the ncaa rule book does not specifically cover penalties on coach ejections, they don't either. Basically this subject is covered by the induhvidual conference(s) to suspend or not suspend the coach.
So, by AAU rule, the coach does not have to sit out. I don't like the AAU's view on the subject, but I guess we need to ensure the tourney director has this in before we tip.

Maybe we should send an electronic petition to the AAU asking for a national change.

Paul -

And then the coach will be coaching the next game. T him up twice and eject him. Problem solved. And then coach gets to coach next game, T him up twice and problem is solved. And then.........Circus time. I too am an honorable man and that is why I would not ref a game with such a disgrace to the sport as this coach is. "Up by 45 and he is screaming at the refs and ejected." Gets to coach the very next game. By the way, I coached AAU for both my boys in upstate NY. This very situation happened with one of the coaches. The refs refused to officiate the game and the rules committee did a "rule change" on the fly and suspended the coach for 1 game. The team was also not invited to the tournament following year.NO PROBLEM AFTER THAT.

Brian -

You have my support on this.

My HS school coach Jack Curran at Archbishop Molloy HS in Jamaica, NY has been coaching for 40 years and was a gentleman on/off the court. Kenny Anderson, Kenny Smith, Brian Winters are just some of the players he coached. I don't ever remember him getting a T.

I would think you would get support for that proposal even from some of the AAU coaches who are fed up with behavior of some of their peers.

Jack

Not to throw more gas on this fire... I found the following regulation in the AAU handbook:

Section IV, D,

1. All teams must have at least two (2) registered coaches on the bench during all games at the National Championship.

I am not sure what the definition of National Championship is, but, does this mean a forfeit if an ejection leaves only one coach?

We have 3 registered coaches on my team, so you could in theory be down one and still play. None of mine will get ejected or they can take their card with them! You need to have a card to be on the bench, and you need two coaches at the start, probably in case one gets ejected.

BTW - I would support the rule change as well. Eliminate excessive behavior by "adults" at kids competitions.

The aau has modified their reply to me. In [b]Girls</> Tournament Competition, if a
coach is ejected with two T's he/she must leave the game and facility. They may coach the next game, but, if they are tossed from that game, they cannot coach the rest of the
tourney.

Bottom line, for girls if they are tossed back-to- back, they're out the balance of the tourney.

I forgot the email addresses of the proper aau people to send our "email petitions", but I will post them on a separate thread so anyone who wishes to voice their opinion to them may. I would encourage having local assoc. members send emails as well.