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-   -   NFHS rules on scoring into an opponent's goal (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/61419-nfhs-rules-scoring-into-opponents-goal.html)

bearclause Sat Jan 29, 2011 04:43pm

NFHS rules on scoring into an opponent's goal
 
Amazing, freak inbounds basket helps team land OT win - Prep Rally - High School - Yahoo! Sports

I looked at the NCAA rules, and it would appear to be a legal score for the opposing team of the player who the ball bounced off of before going through the basket, with the caveat that the score is not credited to any particular player with a footnote made in the scorebook. I also found it interesting that an opponent scoring a goal for the other team is always two points no matter where the last contact is.

Is the rule (about the shot being legal and the points not credited to any player) the same under NFHS rules?

APG Sat Jan 29, 2011 04:44pm

Yes. Anytime a live ball enters the hoop, points are credited to the appropriate team.

bearclause Sat Jan 29, 2011 05:25pm

So under NFHS rules, no player is credited with the score, correct?

If you check the comments there, a lot of people think that the score is credited to the closest inbounds offensive player.

APG Sat Jan 29, 2011 05:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearclause (Post 723296)
So under NFHS rules, no player is credited with the score, correct?

If you check the comments there, a lot of people think that the score is credited to the closest inbounds offensive player.

That is correct under NFHS rules.

People think it's credited to the closest offensive player because that's the NBA rule.

NBA
Rule 5, Section I

d. A field goal accidentally scored in an opponent’s basket shall be added to the opponent’s score, credited to the opposing player nearest the player whose actions caused the ball to enter the basket.

BktBallRef Sat Jan 29, 2011 06:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearclause (Post 723283)
Is the rule (about the shot being legal and the points not credited to any player) the same under NFHS rules?

It's not a shot. A shot can only be taken at your own basket. It's just a ball that goes through the basket that counts as two points.

JugglingReferee Sat Jan 29, 2011 07:09pm

I worked a full day of "a" (not even "A") girl's basketball yesterday. The games are only 20 minutes long. On one play, a girl scored into her opponent's basket and was almost fouled on the "shot", too.

To keep my mind active during these held-ball contests, I went through the implications of actually being fouled when shooting into the opponent's basket. Fun times.

bearclause Sat Jan 29, 2011 07:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 723330)
It's not a shot. A shot can only be taken at your own basket. It's just a ball that goes through the basket that counts as two points.

Yeah - I know. However - I've been going over one particular rulebook and the term used is almost always "try".

So technically - the "goal" counted.....

Adam Sat Jan 29, 2011 07:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearclause (Post 723349)
Yeah - I know. However - I've been going over one particular rulebook and the term used is almost always "try".

And a try is, by definition, towards the player's own basket. Anything towards the wrong basket is simply a thrown ball.

The key with the definition is, if time expires prior to the ball going through the "wrong" basket, it doesn't count. Same if there's a foul on the "shooter" at the wrong basket. Ball is dead, and the player is not considered in the act of shooting when he's fouled. Ball out of bounds for a throw-in unless the bonus is in effect.

I'm not aware this differs at any level.

26 Year Gap Sat Jan 29, 2011 08:06pm

In days gone by, a basket was credited to the player closest to the basket. Just like in the olden days of soccer when 'own goals' were credited to the last offensive player to touch the ball. The footnote is something that occurred during the gap, I believe.

APG Sat Jan 29, 2011 09:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 723356)
And a try is, by definition, towards the player's own basket. Anything towards the wrong basket is simply a thrown ball.

The key with the definition is, if time expires prior to the ball going through the "wrong" basket, it doesn't count. Same if there's a foul on the "shooter" at the wrong basket. Ball is dead, and the player is not considered in the act of shooting when he's fouled. Ball out of bounds for a throw-in unless the bonus is in effect.

I'm not aware this differs at any level.

This is true at the NFHS, NCAA, and NBA level.

BktBallRef Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearclause (Post 723349)
... the term used is almost always "try".

That's the point. It's not in this case.

Stat-Man Sun Jan 30, 2011 01:24am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 723356)
And a try is, by definition, towards the player's own basket. Anything towards the wrong basket is simply a thrown ball.

The key with the definition is, if time expires prior to the ball going through the "wrong" basket, it doesn't count. Same if there's a foul on the "shooter" at the wrong basket. Ball is dead, and the player is not considered in the act of shooting when he's fouled. Ball out of bounds for a throw-in unless the bonus is in effect.

I'm not aware this differs at any level.

I believe in NBA rules, a try at the wrong goal is a violation.

APG Sun Jan 30, 2011 01:56am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stat-Man (Post 723456)
I believe in NBA rules, a try at the wrong goal is a violation.

Yes, it is a violation to intentionally shoot at the wrong goal. This violation was called when Nate Robinson tried it a couple of years ago at the end of the quarter.

BillyMac Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:10am

Gestapo Fashion Police ...
 
Black 23 has a white undershirt. Penalty: Hanged, drawn and quartered.

Adam Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:37am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer (Post 723464)
Yes, it is a violation to intentionally shoot at the wrong goal. This violation was called when Nate Robinson tried it a couple of years ago at the end of the quarter.

Interesting, is the rule worded so that any attempt at the wrong basket is a violation; or only those where the player knows it's the wrong basket?

sseltser Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:54am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 723628)
Interesting, is the rule worded so that any attempt at the wrong basket is a violation; or only those where the player knows it's the wrong basket?

2 things:

I thought that Robinson's "shot" was a fraction of a second after the horn, which is why id didn't count. Maybe a violation was called, but I don't remember it.

I think the purpose of the violation is to prevent players from getting the phantom 10th rebound when nobody is around to complete their triple or double - double.

26 Year Gap Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by sseltser (Post 723642)
2 things:

I thought that Robinson's "shot" was a fraction of a second after the horn, which is why id didn't count. Maybe a violation was called, but I don't remember it.

I think the purpose of the violation is to prevent players from getting the phantom 10th rebound when nobody is around to complete their triple or double - double.

But, if it isn't a try, then there cannot be a rebound.

Adam Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap (Post 723650)
But, if it isn't a try, then there cannot be a rebound.

Right, the existing rules at the NCAA and NFHS level would prevent this, too. I believe Ricky Davis tried this a few years ago to no avail. A travel or illegal dribble call will quickly work on this.

APG Sun Jan 30, 2011 01:48pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 723628)
Interesting, is the rule worded so that any attempt at the wrong basket is a violation; or only those where the player knows it's the wrong basket?

NBA
Rule 5, Section I

d. A field goal accidentally scored in an opponent’s basket shall be added to the opponent’s score, credited to the opposing player nearest the player whose actions caused the ball to enter the basket.

e. It is a violation for a player to attempt a field goal at an opponent’s basket. The opposing team will be awarded the ball at the free throw line extended.

sselter, you may be correct when you say the play was after the buzzer. But that play would of most definitely been waved off if there was more time on the clock.

26, you're right in that it wouldn't be counted as a rebound. There was a situation in the NBA, a few years back where Ricky Davis was attempting to get the last rebound for a triple double and tried tossing it off an opponent's basket thinking he'd get a rebound for it.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" class="youtube-player" type="text/html" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/MezCclCSjNw" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="390" width="480"></iframe>

Interesting enough, this should of been a traveling violation since he picked up the pivot foot before he released the ball for a dribble. And sorry for the lame music in the video.

bearclause Sun Jan 30, 2011 02:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 723628)
Interesting, is the rule worded so that any attempt at the wrong basket is a violation; or only those where the player knows it's the wrong basket?

I was looking up the NCAA rules, and they have some interesting language on this possibility, if they inadvertently go in the wrong direction. Apparently any scoring that happened in the wrong baskets count as if they had gone in the correct direction.

Quote:

Rule 5. Section 1. Art. 3. When the official(s) permits a team to go in the wrong direction, and when the error is discovered all activity and time consumed shall count as though each team had gone in the proper direction. Play shall be resumed with each team going in the proper direction.
Sounds somewhat like I heard the way baseball used to operate in its infancy, although the BB rule seems to state it would be inadvertent to allow players to "choose" the wrong direction. If the bases were empty a batter could optionally head for 1st base or 3rd base. Once the bases had players, they went in a defined direction until the bases were cleared.

BillyMac Sun Jan 30, 2011 03:00pm

Buy Me Some Peanuts And Cracker Jack ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bearclause (Post 723754)
If the bases were empty a batter could optionally head for 1st base or 3rd base.

Certainly takes one advantage of being a left handed hitter away.

Adam Sun Jan 30, 2011 06:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearclause (Post 723754)
I was looking up the NCAA rules, and they have some interesting language on this possibility, if they inadvertently go in the wrong direction. Apparently any scoring that happened in the wrong baskets count as if they had gone in the correct direction.

Yep, and the rule is the same in high school (NFHS).

bob jenkins Sun Jan 30, 2011 09:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 723628)
Interesting, is the rule worded so that any attempt at the wrong basket is a violation; or only those where the player knows it's the wrong basket?

Called so it doesn't affect the betting line. (Team up by 20 points; line is 19; player shoots at wrong basket as time expires and team wins by 18 -- someone is mad).

Quote:

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer (Post 723284)
Yes. Anytime a live ball enters the hoop, points are credited to the appropriate team.

Not true. a throw-in is a live ball, and no points are scored if the ball enters the basket.

BillyMac Sun Jan 30, 2011 09:48pm

Just A Guess ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 724003)
Called so it doesn't affect the betting line.

The Tim Donaghy Rule?

zakman2005000 Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer (Post 723284)
Yes. Anytime a live ball enters the hoop, points are credited to the appropriate team.

The inference on this statement is that anytime a live ball enters the basket that points are awarded. Surely that isn't what you meant?

APG Mon Jan 31, 2011 01:47am

Quote:

Originally Posted by zakman2005000 (Post 724049)
The inference on this statement is that anytime a live ball enters the basket that points are awarded. Surely that isn't what you meant?

Err...you are correct. A live ball from inbounds is the correct.

APG Mon Jan 31, 2011 01:49am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 724014)
The Tim Donaghy Rule?

This rule has been in the book before the Tim Donaghy situation.


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