Verbal Abuse - how much is too much?
 

New guy here: I was officiating in city league a while ago and during a very heated game I made a delayed call and one team went ballastic. One of the players on the heated team was an official, and he lost his cool. They had no subs, so fatigue was at play, and really he was furious because they lost a giant lead and nearly the game(they won in the end).

I know I screwed up the call so I let it go and ignored him. What consitutes as verbal abuse? Swearing? A player saying "you suck ref!"? Making chippy remarks? Insulting the level you are officiating at?

Any comments, direction, or crazy stories are appeciated.

For the record:
 

I was NOT that player!!:)

There is not a hard and fast rule about "How much is too much". While I think that there are some absolutes: The F word being one, I also think that "You Suck Ref" would be another, unless it was from a fan.
The bottom line is How much is too much is up to the individual. If you think you took too much than you probably did. Which means that next time it happens you now know where YOUR line is drawn and will respond accordingly.

No doubt everyone has a different level.

I won't tolerate profanity. I won't take anything directed at me. Such as " YOU SUCK" or "CALL THE FOUL" ( if they ask me to call a foul I will often give them what I thought they were asking for and it ends up making them even less happy. ) ("T").

On the other hand, " what about the foul" , does bother me. Not much from the stands bothers me, in 1 years I have never had a fan removed. They paid to get in, yelling is part of it, so long as there's no profanity.

Coaches should be the leader of their team, if they are disrespectful, their players will be also. JMO.

I don't care if I do miss the call, I'm not going to tolerate verbal abuse, swearing, or a player saying, "you suck ref."

Not that I've ever missed a call.....
 

+1

I also didn't tolerate it this week when I called a fifth on a Rec player and as he was walking off said to me, "that's the worst call I've ever seen." Whack!

(Incidentally, I've seen allot worse calls than that one). ;)

It sounds like you may be just starting out officiating, if you are (or aren't), I would avoid adult city league games. I only do two adult games a year and that is the christmas alumni games. Adult leagues have more chippy, arrogant players and some of the coaches are more than a complete a$$!! I don't tolerate, "you suck", or other similar verbal abuse, "bad" profanity (whatever that is) is not put up with either at any level. A possible suggestion is officiate 4-6 grade level games to start and work up from there. These games are a lot easier in a lot of ways and you'll see things you never thought possible during a basketball game! Good Luck, when a player or coach is starting to ruin my fun as an official I tend to focus on them and a "T" quickly follows!

1. If it's personal, don't tolerate it at that level. The more you take, the more they'll give.

2. If I know a guy is a ref, he gets a shorter rope due to a higher standard to which I hold fellow officials.

3. If he has taken the opportunity to tell me he's an official (as opposed to me just knowing for various reasons), the rope gets even shorter. If he so much as looks at me sidewise while talking to me, T.

4. I'm convinced that most rec leagues need more Ts handed out, not less.

5. As BktBallRef stated, it doesn't matter if I screwed a call or not; players and coaches don't get to address me like that.

6. Completely separate issue, but you said it was a late call and then that you had screwed the call. Was it a correct call, or was it late and wrong?

Agreed
 

The majority of mine are handed out here......and unfortunately, I'm one of the only ones who hands em out. That's part of the problem. So many officials take it at that level and then when we come along to enforce the rules........oh well! :rolleyes: WHACK!

If they get personal or question my integrity that usually needs to be addressed. Even if you do not give a T, these should be addressed in some way. Either a quiet little talk or sometimes a public one meaning everyone knows I am talking to that player or coach. What you decide to ultimately penalize or not penalize is up to your personal standards and experience. It is also good to know what the standard for that league or level is as well because some assignors/leagues might have a strict policy how to handle certain behaviors.

Peace

I refuse to do adult rec games and don't really like to do any kind of rec game. In the adult leagues, the players are a$$es many times and I refuse to take it so needless to say, it is an unpleasant game for all involved. In the younger rec leagues, while I enjoy working with the kids, I notice I am not as sharp at the next varsity game as I normal am if I did a rec game the night before. I think doing the rec league games actually hurts me as an official as often they want you to be more lenient on calls and I find that hard to do.

+1 Alternating from one to the other is a challenge.

I friend of mine runs a men's league. I've never worked it, but he tells me how he took care of unwanted behavior: fines.

If you get T'd up, it's a $25 fine, payable immediately. You cannot go back into the game until it's paid. (It makes for some interesting scenes of players hitting up their teammates.) If you get a second T, you're done, and you cannot play the next game until $25 is paid.

The league has 17 teams, so they apparently abide by it.

Generally, is the comment 1) disrespectful or 2) unsportsmanlike? Sometimes I like to add a third: Is it something you wouldn't say to a cop who has pulled you over for a traffic violation? How 'bout "you suck, Gumshoe" as he walks up to ask you for license, proof of insurance, and registration?

While I understand your point, how does that comment NOT fit under both one and two?

Why more lenient? Maybe they can play through more contact, but I see no reason to be "more lenient." Just call your game, and don't accept any grief.

You're right, though, if that doesn't work, don't do the games.

Delayed Whistle ...
 

While others have given you advice on the unsporting aspect of your situation, I have decided to offer something about the delayed call.

When you say that you screwed up the call, do you mean that you blew the call, or that you had the right call, and for some reason, delayed the whistle?

For most plays, a delayed call is better than a wrong call. Sometimes it may take you a few fractions of a second to fire up those neurons, and get those pesky neurotransmitter chemicals to cross the synapses. By the time your brain registers that a foul, or a violation, has occurred, some time may have passed, maybe up to a full second, or so, until you actually sound your whistle. I've actually spit my whistle out on a few occasions, and have had to put it back in my mouth to blow it again. If someone complains about a late whistle, just tell them that it was delayed, but it was the right call.

On the other hand, there is some undefined statute of limitations on how long you can delay your whistle. You don't want to be calling a travel ten seconds after it happens. On those calls, you just say to yourself, "Damn, I think I missed that, I'm going to get it next time", and move on. If someone questions the missed call, just say, "I may have missed it", which is the truth, and move on.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled program, "How Much Sh** Do You Take Before Giving Someone The Old Heave-Ho?", now in progress.

Everyone has a different level. I try to ignore the usual carping unless it's one of the three P's (personal, public, profane.) Then it's either a warning or a T.

You've got one of the Ps wrong. Instead of "public," it's "persistent." You really warn/penalize any "public" comment?

what happened
 

Ok, you guys will be shaking your heads, but to answer the question on the call that was screwed up here is what happened: I'm Trail, and end of the game team A is down by 10 points but has been fighting back all half. They still think they can win this game. Team A's point guard is all over team B's point guard. Team B's point guard tries to create space but the amount of space created wasn't much. Here is where it got bad: on that play I wasn't counting 5 seconds.. so when the ball went out of bounds, team A screamed for a 5 second call that should have been made, which was probably warranted. I confered with my partner at the baseline and explained the situation. He said let's call the 5 second and of course team B went crazy (thus the ref became unglued, said things he would have t'd someone up for). Team B said it wasn't a reviewable call, which could be true as well, but we had discussed it, made that call, and had to stick to our guns.

Both teams are full of former players, so even the best calls all night were challenged. This was a slightly more competitive mens league with former college players, coaches and refs on the court going at each other.

Another rookie question: How can I get a copy of the High School bball rules? I live in Idaho and can't find it online.

I just moved here from CA and would like to join the association if my job permits. So for now I ref city league and kids.

Thanks for the imput guys, I appreciate it.

1) It's not really a changeable call.

2) You can order from NFHS, or join and review it on-line.

Snaq, yes I agree. Persistent instead of Public. Must have had a cerebral low temp event.

great, great thread- invaluable to us newer guys. i'm in my third year, and have come to know where my "line" is. my first year i was too scared to call a T, and vividly remember a couple of situations where the coach was so out of line that anybody would have called a t. in retrospect, i wish i would have t'd them up, and, i also wish that after the game my partners had given me some insight...in addition to what i asked them.

i will referee anytime for any level, because i want to improve, but i won't do city league games. i did a few, and found that they were so crazy it was actually making me regress as an official. i would much rather do 5th graders. actually, i think the 5th graders are more mature than the ex-jocks who are playing to re-attain their glory days.

This is my fourth year and at times I wonder where my line is.

For example this past Friday I had a JV/So DH, coach for both squads are the same. So JV game goes smooth, no issues with said coach. However SO game, a couple minutes into the game I call a hand check and coach goes off for a bit giving me "You going to call that ticky tat foul, make sure you call it both ways", I say ok coach i hear ya, give him the nod and keep it moving.

Now I have a play where a young man goes for the loose ball, he slips and takes the opposing players feet out with his own feet, I saw nothing and didnt call a foul. The coach runs up crosses half court line to argue for a foul, I just gave him the stop sign and he walked away. In hindsight I shouldve T him up, he was quiet the rest of the game. Caught me by surprise but usually running up to me warrants a T.

I got him on Tuesday.

Running towards you, out of the box, complaining about a call?

T

I agree with this. When I was a graduate student about 6-7 years ago I used to do Adult Rec all the time just for the cash. Now, I pretty much avoid it. I understand if this is all your schedule allows you to do but I enjoy scholastic, JUCO (though this can sometimes be glorified Adult rec), and even AAU SO MUCH more than Adult leagues. You can't win no matter what kind of game you call and guys tend to take the frustration of being past their athletic primes out on the officials.

I did however, do 5 Adult league games this past weekend. Saturday morning I did three games for a friend of mind who was paying cash on the spot. It's a church league played in the actual church on a nice court. The guy who runs the league seems to be a really cool guy and while there was subtle questioning of calls there was no profanity, no problems, and everyone seemed respectful of the fact that we were in a church. I will likely do this league several times over the next two months.

Last night, I did 2 games for a county league as a favor to the Rec Commissioner for my Scholastic board. I had 5 Ts though two were double technicals.

First Double T (1st game)- After a bunch of jostling in the post prior to an inbound play my partner warns both players to knock it off. I hear them mumbling stuff to each then the next time we come down to the same end of the court the both kind of load up and run into each other. Double T.

Second Double T (2nd game)- A player on the black team that shot absolutely lights out (put up 90 points with 20 minute running clock halves and up 30 at this point) gets fouled hard (not THAT hard but hard enough) going up for a layup with about 3 minutes left. While going to the line he says "That's some BS." Not really directed at anyone. While at the line he says to the opposing player on gold "I gotta go to work tomorrow." The guys says something to the effect of "Shut up and shoot your free throws." Double T.

Last Technical- Same game as the second double T. My partner calls a blocking foul on the gold 44. As I'm adminstering the free throws gold 44 mumbles something about it being a soft call and didnt know we were playing "girls basketball." I look at him but say nothing because "I gotta go to work tomorrow too" and I'm trying to get outta here. He then makes a second reference to girls basketball and how we must have called a girls game last nite. T- Gold 44.

While my partner administers the T, a member of the gold team and former D-1 player who was cool most of the night says, "Why is that a Tech, he wasnt showing you up. I mean I heard him but it's not like the whole gym heard it." My response was "the whole gym doesnt have to hear it. I'm hear to officiate basketball. I don't have to listen to that stuff all night and I'm NOT going to listen to that all night." Fair enough he says.

The games were both really well played but I seriously doubt I will be doing this league again. Not worth the hassle.

These were all easy calls for me to make though I don't think they would have been quite so easy when I was younger. The problem with adult rec is you really need experienced officials to TCB but it's not worth the hassle for most experienced officials to work them.

How About A Double Personal Foul, Maybe Intentional, Maybe Flagrant ???
 

Live ball contact? Technical foul? What?

Live ball.

The ball was coming up the court and I was watching them the whole time as I knew they one or both was about to do something stupid.

Shouldn't those have been double personals then?

I thought this was where this was going.

At first, I signaled for a double foul. But went double T so that each would know that any more BS and they would get tossed.

I should know this, but by rule am I not allowed to issue Ts here? Bout to go to do a game but I'll check back. TIA.

Live ball contact...should of been a double personal foul.

Pick Your Poison ...
 

Three choices: Double personal fouls, maybe intentional, maybe flagrant?

Unsporting Double Ts for the action that preceded the contact.

Pushing The Envelope ???
 

That's one hell of a delayed call. Unless your talking about the seconds immediately before the contact, in which case I would have liked to have heard what was said before I T'd them up. I like the intentionals, or if I was in a bad mood in that part of the game, the flagrants.

I'm talking right before, not two trips earlier. And watching them "load up" would be enough for me.

Agreed. By rule, he probably should have gone double personal fouls, but I don't have that big a problem with stretching this a bit in a men's rec game.

The problem is: What does double intentionals accomplish? The end result is the same as double personals of the common variety. I didnt feel like their actions warranted flagrants but definitely felt it should have been stronger than just a common double foul. The Ts put both players on notice that no other BS would be tolerated from either of them and neither said a peep the rest of the game. I don't think double intentionals would have had the same effect.

But after looking at the rules book it looks like I grossly misunderstood 4.19.3 in thinking that it allowed for live ball technicals in this situation. Which after reading 4.19.4 and 5 it CLEARLY does not.

The time from their "load ups" to contact was too short for me to do anything about it. I did stretch the rules a bit but glad this occurred in men's rec.

Still though, it seems to me that is a bit of a hole in the rules for a situation where you have two opposing players engaging in "contact away from the ball." By rule this would be double intentionals but again, what does that do?

That also leads to a kinda wild situation I had tonite in a scholastic game. I'll have to share details in a thread tomorrow.

My Line
 

Two examples come to mind this year where mine was crossed:

I called two offensive (PC) fouls on the same player in the first quarter of a JV B game last week. The lad will be a good player, but he has a terrible habit of pushing off the defender to create space as he brings the ball up. The more defensive pressure, the harder he pushes. After the second PC foul the coach stands up and pulls chestnuts 1,2,3 out of the coaching protest manual. ("How can you call that", "you have it in for the kid", and "other officials didn't call that a foul during the season") I might have let him rant if he hadn't started yelling from the bench, but finished somewhere around the center circle. As I started to call his well earned technical he yells "I suppose you're going to give me a technical now". Ah, yes coach I think you've earned it. (my partner called the same foul, same player a third time at the start of the second half)

This past weekend (B-5G) an AC, as a time out was granted to his team after the HC requested one, started using my personal favorite "you have to call them both ways ref" loudly enough for the entire gym to hear. After I glanced over at the bench, which usually stops the talking, he yells "that's just Bulls#t". Whistle, T administered. The HC was pretty pleased, losing the coachnig box because his AC couldn't keep his mouth shut.

Both of those cross my line immediately. They can question my judgment but I won't let anybody question my integrity.

Whack!

The evaluator at my game the other day won a bet with a fan. I T'd a player. The only thing the fans saw was a player slap the floor with both hands. The fan was yelling that she was just upset with herself. The evaluator, who was in cognito, told the fan that he suspects there was more too it. Obviously he asks me what happened and I said I was going to let the floor slap go b/c you can't tell if she was upset with herself, the call or the fact that CocaCola hasn't gone with a "throwback" cola like Pepsi! BUT when she said "That was F**** Bull S****" I go with a "T". Maybe I should have asked for part of the winnings?

nope. You're not. live ball contact must be a personal- common or shooting, intentional or flagrant.

Exactly. He wouldn't have got past "you have it in for the kid" before my whistle would have blown. I've never actually heard that one.

yes sir every day of the week and twice on sunday. Got caught up, wont happen again, well i hope anyways.