At what point do you engage/remove an obnoxious fan?
 

I make it a point to completely tune out fans, unless I happen to hear loud, abusive or foul language and know exactly who said it -- so I can get him/her ejected. But the other night, in a 30-point blowout, after calling an obvious foul on the losing team, a parent of the losing team in the stands nearest where I'm standing makes some comment about me stealing my game fee for my work in the game. Being down 30, it was a pretty ridiculous comment. I usually don't pay attention to any fan comments, but this one really irritated me, it was so stupid and uncalled for. Is there a point, shy of the obvious, that you'll remove a fan for a stupid comment like this? Or ignore except for swearing?

I'd ignore this one and chalk it up to ignorance and frustration.

I ignore comments like that. The only time I even worry about a fan is if it is foul language, they threaten me, or come out to the floor area to taunt me (had that happen one night). When I have one that needs to be addressed I let the game administrator know and let him handle it

It's not hard to pretty much ignore fans like that. In reality, they're just making fools of themselves. Aside from profanity or threatening behavior, if a fan is persistently obnoxious, I have no problem having them sent to the parking lot. Actually, athletic directors/game managers seem to live for those opportunities.

As frustrating as it is to hear these types most fans around them see the person for who they are: a loud mouth, obnoxious, make our school look bad kind of fan. There are spouses who can't even sit with one another at a contest because of the embarrassing behavior that is expressed by one spouse. In the long run, I think such a fan pays a much larger price for the pound of flesh they're trying to extract. The other moments, language, abuse, coming onto the court, etc., yeah, those are an escalation. Deal with them quickly. Thankfully it doesn't happen all that often.

No. They don't.

I wouldn't in most cases directly. The only time I would even say anything directly if that individual in the first row and they decide to talk to me as I am right in front of them.

That being said there is a little trick that some friends use and we call it, "Playing the game." If a person is over the top obnoxious, I have with some friends bring my partner with me together and look at the individual and even point directly at them, but we could be talking about anything like where we are going to eat or what cute girl is in the stands and usually this gets the fan's attention and the people with them. They know they have been pointed out and they usually fall in line without any other action as their spouse or child gets them to stop because of their total embarrassment. Every time I have seen this done, there is no need for further action. Again, you do not go to the stands and do this and you do not need to stop play. But it is a little trick and it works. I have done it twice this year and one of the times the police wanted to know if I was going to eject the individual. But other than that if you are going to actually eject a fan have the game management do that for you. Just point them out and get them out. Do not tell the individual yourself or say anything to them.

Peace

Nice! I like. Cretin gets the hint, if he doesn't he's gone.
Filed.

Excellent.

+1 - may use that myself if the situation warrants

This works so well one time with a guy that was so bad, that when my partner's did this to him, he said immediately..."I'm leaving!!!" and walked out the door.

Peace

I'm lucky in that my governing body of basketball operations (not the officials wing) has a zero-tolerance policy.

And..... they want it enforced.

They have this because years ago, the comments were becoming an "issue".

I had a partner kick out a fan by himself once. It was the championship game of a holiday tournament. I have no idea what the fan said to get himself the boot, but he walked out without a problem.

I had a game earlier this year where I thought about kicking a fan out. Near the end of a 30-point blowout, Team A is still pressing Team B. Team A has a fan that has been very outspoken all night long, and has sort of laughed when Team B makes an errant pass or something like that.

B1 steps out of bounds to inbound the ball, right in front of this fan. B1's last name happens to be Patel. I knew that because they introduced the starters, and she was one of them. He says to her "Alright Patel, let's see what you've got".

If her last name wasn't Patel, or if I didn't know at the time at her last name was indeed Patel, I think I would have pulled the trigger.

Why? Don't go looking for trouble.

Taunting and racism come to mind. What I can't convey here is the tone he used. It was one that said, to me, hey your team sucks you all have no business being on the same court as our far superior team.

Before every game I've worked that has a PA announcer, an announcement is read that strongly encourages sportsmanship to all present. How can we justify their reading the statement if we're not willing to enforce it?

From the sounds of it, I still wouldn't of done anything...especially if the player didn't react negatively to it.

This past Saturday night I did the old overtly ask the police officer to go stand down in that corner (near my problem)....shut that whole section down. As a crew, we laughed about it all night, it was like going from a sports bar to a church in the span of one quarter break.

I've done the old "enough" and that's been a mixed bag.

I've tossed em myself and in all 3 cases (in 10 years), they got up and walked like it happens all the time.

I think the professional thing to do is not engage em. If they distract you from the job, have someone else move em or toss em.

Best ever....I was at a well known big school in town and a very tenured season ticket holder was wearing my partner out. My P went to the cop and brought him right to the spot and said this guy has gotta go....old guy...he says "I aint leavin". Cop said leave or go to jail. Of course then it was the old, he can barely walk, needs help on the stairs routine but in the end....my partner got a polite applause....amazing...he tosses a guy who has had that seat since the building was built in the early 80s....and got an applause.

She shot the guy a look.

I still probably would of let that go. I don't see the racism angle you were going with there...might be just something I don't now. And that taunting angle I would find a stretch as well...you were also there and I wasn't.

I have found that more often than not, this is the case. Generally, fans are happy to see the jacka$$es get tossed.

It makes me think that if we err, we generally err by letting folks stay longer than we should. Of course, I've also told ADs who have said they'll toss anyone we want if they cause trouble that they don't have to wait for us - if someone is causing problems, just get them out of here.

There's nothing that says fans can't taunt opponents, IMO. As for racism, how?

OOO, IMO. Unless he says something blatantly racist or profane, I'm not touching it. I repeat myself, no need to look for trouble here.

Well, Patel is a common Indian/Middle Eastern last name, and I've heard it used quite a bit in a derogatory sense. So like I said, if I didn't know that her name was, in fact, Patel, I probably would have taken it in a derogatory sense, which has no place in HS basketball. I think we can all agree on that.

Huh?????

I'm with fullor...say what? :confused:

You guys have never heard Patel used as an insult?

How is Patel both a common last name by your own admission and an insult? :confused:

I take it along the same lines as calling a Mexican guy a beaner or an Italian guy a greaseball.

Racially derogatory terms. The way I've heard "Patel" used, it's almost never in a nice way.

Except those terms aren't last names for the respective ethnicities you mentioned. No one is confusing that. If I heard a fan in the crowd call someone those terms, they'd be gone.

I have never head Patel used as a derogatory term but I have heard people of middle eastern heritage called "Sand N*gger". If I heard that on the court or in the stands I would not tolerate it under any circumstances. It is ignorant and classless.

There is a school I officiate at semi-regularly that has a Indian (form India) on the team - I have never heard anything derogatory said to him or about him though.

I have heard that term before...that's a one way ticket out of the gym/flagrant T.

Unless a fan makes a threat of violence against the officials or participants (bench personnel included) or comes out on the court, IGNORE IT! Then let Game Management handle it.

MTD, Sr.

I do this too, but I go over to the cop by the door and point to the offender. Works very well.

I disagree with this. I have probably had only a handful of people removed in 24 years, but if I knew that a fan was taunting a HS player, I wouldn't hesitate to get the AD and have the idiot thrown out.

Maybe there is some hidden meaning to "Patel" that I am not aware of but I would not equate a name with a slur such as one of the ones above.

With apologies to Freddy, no need to be a plumber here.

my 2 cents
 

In my area, the schools read a 'fans code of conduct' statement before all varsity High School games expressing exactly what is expected and allowed of the fans. I can't recite it word for word but part of the code of conduct is that you definitely can not single out a player by using his or her name and be critical in a negative sense. This would include the players parents:) I would definitely talk to game management if I thought a negative comment was directed at a player using the players name. The fans code of conduct basically says to cheer for your team or keep quiet. There are references to players, coaches and officials and how they must be treated. Also, the burden on enforcing this is on game management but that does not mean that we as officials can't help out when we hear something that they may not hear.

This does not mean I would have rabbit ears on minor things directed at me but I believe the players should be protected from insults from idiots.

I've never heard Patel used this way - but admittedly I've never lived in an area with much, if any, Indian population. However, I can see the point you're making - if you are saying it would be like someone using something like "Paco" to refer to a Hispanic player.

In any of these cases I'd have to be certain it was being done in a racial way.

No, but I don't hang out with people who use racial insults on a regular basis. Frankly, I've never heard a racial slur on a basketball court, either.

Fair enough, but it would have to be a) extremely obvious and b) a lot more serious that "let's see what you've got."

I'm starting to get the reference (no, I've never heard it; must be a regional thing), but I've never heard common names used as racial slurs like this. Well, I have heard folks use "Hajji" used to reference middle eastern muslims; but that's not a name so much as a title from what I understand.

If, as you say, it's a common slur in your area, I would still need to be sure it wasn't her name before I'd even think about it. Not the other way around as you suggested. Benefit of the doubt goes to the person making the statement here, IMO.

we have one school in our area where the fan's are so obnoxious that a lot of the guys have blocked the school. so, those of us who haven't end up going there a lot. no matter what we do, nothing seems to help. the AD is sympathetic to our plight and tries, but it seems like the next game the same stuff happens. fans have been ejected for the game/season, but it just goes on and on.

Suggest to him that he clear the gym for a game sometime; just to get his point across.

thanks.....i'm out there again next week...he's a great AD, and sick of his own fans. i'll do that.

Ditto.

Obviously, if it's so bad that officials are choosing not to work there anymore, the tolerance level needs to decrease there. Remove a fan as early as problems begin Instead of choosing one fan, clear a section of the bleachers. Instead of a section, an entire side.

If the "innocent" fans begin to be punished for the actions of the knuckleheads, they will start to hold each other accountable. It sounds like a problem of culture, and big things must happen to change culture.

Agree. We never interact directly with the fans. If one becomes disruptive to the point it needs to be addressed, we have game management deal with it.

Unless you are a racial minority or someone outside of the normal community, these things should not be dismissed. I completely understand the point that is being made by the usage of a name and the way it was done. People do not have to use derogatory names to have a racial, ethnic or even religious tone to them. Just the story sounds like there was an attempt to humiliate or point out the person's racial background. And I have no problem for this action to be taken by Stiffler on this matter and I would take a similar action. Been in enough situations where things are said in ways that make it clear they are trying to make a racial point. I am sure most here are not either privy to those situations or even know how to recognize them when they are taking place.

Peace

Interesting, thanks for the perspetive, Jeff. I'll just re-state that it would have to be glaringly obvious before I'd address it. No way I'm kicking a fan out on a hunch.

I understand using a generic name such as calling an Hispanic "Juan" when their name is not known but how is it racially motivated to use the person's name?

And what if I am "somewhat" minority? :D

LOL, not in Texas you're not. :D

Well maybe not for much longer. :p

What is obvious to one person, the other person might be oblivious to.

Peace

At one school, they call me Chuck Norris. I'm not offended, but I suspect Chuck would be.

Chuck Norris doesn't need a belt. His pants wouldn't dare to fall down.

Oh, on the topic -- I've kicked fans out. I've had game management remove them. I've addressed the fans.

It all depends on the level, my experience at the time, what was said, how it was said, what I thought of game management, etc.

Sometimes it was for racial comments. Sometimes I've laughed (chuckled to myself) at them (when they were directed at me).

Agreed, but I can only deal with what's obvious to me. And I'm, frankly, relatively clueless on these things.

I was in basic training before I knew "boy" was an insult with racial tones.

I'm more tuned to it than before, but I had no idea of stiffler's issue here. Hell, I couldn't have told you that Patel was a common Indian name before reading this thread.

A guy in one of my associations worked a playoff game and some fan referred to him as Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan. The fan was removed. It was a district playoff game and the fan was related to a school administrator. [His partner was the guy who got the fan removed].

After he told the story, I asked him whether he was Bruce Lee or Jackie Chan.:D

So they went so low as to call you 'wasp'?

my .02
 

My one and only fan ejection in a high school game was in February a couple of years ago.

A big ol' fellow in a John Deere hat and overalls was sitting on the front row of the bleachers during the GV game (his daughter played for the home team). He didn't say much during that game, but he was extremely vocal during the BV game (home team was bad and routinely got thumped by 30+ points that year) ... nothing vulgar or racial, just complained loudly about every call (or no-call) that didn't favor the home squad. My partners and I had done a pretty good job of ignoring him.

Then about 1 min into the Q4 the ball went out of bounds right in front of him and the T awarded the ball to the visiting team. As I stood there in front of him waiting for subs to enter the game, he said "You boys are about the dumbest sons a-b!itches to ever put on striped shirts" loud enough for those around him to hear.

I called the principal over to where I was standing a informed her he was to be removed from the gym before the game could continue.

He still sits in the same spot for all the home HS games and I see him several times a year ... but now we joke about it!

And no one in their right mind is expecting you to do anything different. And I might treat a situation totally different from you. Just like someone will be offended if they say "God D&&m" in a sentence and I will not. You have to find your place in this and when someone chooses to behave in a certain way it is up to them to be aware that someone might react differently to their actions.

Peace

You must not have played at the same parks I played at growing up. Of course, I am not sure you could categorize them as racial slurs so much as trash talk. I have had more then a few fans removed for racial stuff. If you let that go, you are only ASKING for trouble. I had one school admin who wouldn't remove the fan but just wanted to stand next to them b/c he was worried they may meet harm in the parking lot. My response was that I can stand here and hold the ball all night until he and his friends leave, or you can have the sheriff escort them to their cars. Johnny Law won that round!

What happened to the idea of an interscholastic contest is an extension of the classroom?

What's not allowed to be said in the classroom is not supposed to be allowed on the court/field.

How hard is that to understand.

Most leagues &/or state associations have as part of their fan code of conduct/ethics, wording that states "Exercise self control and permit only POSITIVE sportsmanlike behavior - Don't accept swearing or negative comments about players or coaches in your rooting section!", which should be universally enforced.

Ironically, some negative comments include: you suck, airball, any my mother/family relation comments, & other such comments/sayings that are meant to belittle a person/persons.

for the record, we're in agreement.

I'll Point Him Out ...
 

How do we make this work with Mark Padgett on the Forum?