Situation in a youth Rec game last night where 6'2 A1 recieves the ball on the blocks for a sure basket when he drops the ball. Defender 5'7 B1 kicks the ball intentionally as A1 is bending down to pick it up. A1 is pissed off as B1 could have kicked his fingers and says that is "F***in unsportsmanlike to be kicking at my fingers". B1 replies sincerely "that he just made a great defensive play by saving a lay up if A1 had picked up the ball."

I felt the play was potentially dangerous but did not know of any rule to T up B1 and so I just called it a violation for the kick and ignored cursing b/c I felt A1 was in the right. Eventually rough play escalated between these two and resulted in their ejection for fighting. In retrospect maybe a double technical at the time would have prevented the fight, but what would have been the grounds against A1? (B1 for swearing)

any ideas for this situation?

thanks
GTW

No question that A1 should have been ejected for his language. Since when do we not call fouls for the F-word because we agree with the sentiment? Where the bomb is actually aimed at an opponent, it should be an automatic ejection (Folks -- just to rub it in a little, this is an item on my "list" referred to in a previous post. And it's a correct judgement, don't you think? Sometimes that list has been very helpful!)

If any foul was called on B1, it would have to be intentional -- illegally taking away an obvious advantage. But I'm not sure you can call that on a violation, where there is no player-to-player contact. You might go ahead and call it and then "realize later" that you were wrong. But it does seem that there needs to be something stronger than a violation to call here.

On the other hand, if he only got ball and there was no contact with the fingers, it was actually a pretty good play. Nothing unsportsmanlike about swinging at the ball when it is near another player. It's done a lot!

Troward,
A Technical foul on A1 for cursing would have gotten both players' attention early.
If you thought B1 committed an unsporting act, then you could have enforced a technical foul for "an unsporting act".

However, if B1's kicking of the ball did not seem anything more than a violation (before A1 cursed), then I do not see how you can make a turn-around and put a T on B1 <i>ex post facto</i>, because you already ruled a "kick".

As I envision the play, an immediate technical on A1 probably would have sufficed and both players may have finished the game.

As you watched the rough play between A1 and B1 escalate, you may have stepped up to both players and mention to them that they have your attention and that they are now on notice for future actions.

mick

Ejected? Are you serious? I would think seriously before ejecting a player for saying something that was not threatening. You could T A1 (although without being there, I am not sure I would do that--I would at least tell him to find some other words to use for the rest of the game), but you might be able to deal with the situation better than quickly issuing a T. I think your list might work well for you and the gmes you call, but I would have serious problems if I used it. Think about A1, he felt like B1 was trying to hurt him, an outburst is not unexpected, help him control it.

in retrospect I agree with your thought process, but I'm not sure about ejection for cursing? What rule are you citing that says automatic ejection if the curse is directed at another player?

I think player saftey needs to be considered here, as opposed to encouraging a player to kick at the ball to gain advantage at the risk of breaking another player's fingers.

Troward,
Unforunately, we are only able to judge "the moment" and not the next 10 minutes.
Last night I had two players click heads. If I had been totally consumed with potential risk of unsafe conditions, I should have kept them and their teammates off the floor. ;)
mick

Are you kidding, when a youth drops the "F" bomb for any reason it is an ejection. The "F" bomb is 100% completely unacceptable at the youth, high school, and college level. And in a perfect world I would also like to think that since the vast majority of professional players are college educated that the "F" bomb would result in an ejection too. But as I stated before, at the youth, H.S., and college level, the "F" bomb means ejection.

Mark T.,
I'll defend your right to feel that way.
But, I am afraid 100% is a little high for me.
<li> Was the player lying on the floor injured?
<li> Was the word spoken underbreath to himself?
<li> Was the word quietly directed to a player's parent?
<li> Was the word aimed at a teammate?

I weigh this kinda stuff, before I react. But, if we are on the floor together and you eject for that act, like I said, I'll back you up.
mick

All I can say is, are you kidding, Mark? I mean, have you worked a high school or college game in the last 5 years? I know the answer is "yes" and I have great respect for your experience; so I'm left wondering how in the world you can think that the f-bomb is 100% unacceptable. It is accepted as common speech in almost any setting where HS and college kids gather. HS school use it after a missed shot, never mind when they think they are being targeted for injury. It's like the word "a$$". Just a few years ago, this was considered vulgar. In fact, I think it made Carlin's list of words you can't say on TV. Then "Friends" started using it, Letterman showed fake ads for "Big-@ss Hams", Seinfeld had the episode where Kramer got the license plate that said "Assman" on it. Nowadays, people have very little problem with using it in a general conversation.

Should they use it? Do I wish that it were not part of (literally) every-day usage? I think the answer to those questions is obvious. But am I going to eject a kid for cursing? Not unless there is some history other than that one curse word.

As always, just my opinion

Chuck

Ejection?
 

<b>But as I stated before, at the youth, H.S., and college level, the "F" bomb means ejection.</b>

Mark T.--

I have no patience with the f-bomb. I would have called the 'T' very quickly in this scenario. I do not, however, see justification for an ejection in this case. That would be automatically equating the f-bomb to flagrant acts such as fighting.

I'm not quibbling that the f-bomb should not be allowed, but I don't think the usage of this word warrants an ejection by itself, just a prompt 'T'. If it was directed straight at me, in as loud of a voice as possible, I could certainly see classifying it as flagrant.

I'm interested in your experiences
 

Been doing YMCA type jr. high/freshman rec games where there is no language used at all. First yr. of high school coming up so I expect to need some guidance.

Mark cites 100% ejection. Usually he backs up statements with citations of chapter and verse. I would be interested in that here.

Others seem to look the other way if an F bomb is done quietly and in context.

I was of the opinion that F bomb is always a T, but not ejection. Now I'm confused.

Todd

LepTalBldgs--

You'll find some great variance of opinion on this board, and it's all useful. Everyone's trigger finger is set differently, but for me, the f-bomb is the nearest thing to an automatic technical that there is.

<i>However</i>, if a player is writhing on the floor in pain or just took a shot to the jewels and drops an f-bomb, I'm very unlikely to call it if it's only audible to those on the floor. I'll likely back off to a suitable distance so I can claim I just didn't hear it!

Re: I'm interested in your experiences
 

If the rec league you ref in declares cursing to be cause
for a T then T 'em up. If it's cause for ejection then
eject them. I've already posted that I personally have no
list, everything regarding the liberal use of language
depends on the situation. Now I'll say the situation needs to be a blizzard in hell before I'll eject for an f-bomb.

I'd probably call a quick T on a player who dropped the "F-bomb" to his/her opponent in the situation described in this original post. However, I would not eject them (unless I was reffing <b> my own kid </b> in which case I would eject him from the league for a couple weeks and let mom unleash an entire can of whoop-*** on him). :-)

Z

If you call that where I am.............
 

you might be watching much more than you are officiating. I understand and feel that we should do whatever we can to curb vulgar language at the HS level. But that does not mean that a T is warranted everytime. Especially not an ejection just for one word. Sometimes you can curb a lot of this language by having a "talk" with the player that uses that language. Or even sometimes the captain will be enough. But just to throw a kid out when they are made at themselves and you might be the only one that hears it, is a stretch to me.

Now at the college level, you will never work again if you are calling Ts for one F-word. Whether we want to see it that way, these are adults. Coaches are coaching as an vocation, not just some extra money. Schools spend thousands and sometimes millions on their programs and Mark wants to throw out someone over one word. Now I understand the personal feeling on the use of language, but you might not get out the first half if you take that approach. I agree that it is not acceptable and should not be acceptable language in many circles, but give us a break. This is going to happen and probably happen often. Now if players are cursing at opponents, you have something. If they are talking amongst teammates or to themselves, no way should you be giving a T, let alone throwing them out of the game because of such an action.

Common sense has to be used. And probably more than any other time and any other place in the rulebook, we need to use it here.

Peace

I can understand if it is written in the rules of a rec league or a youth league to have an automatic ejection for the f-bomb or any other curse word......But at other levels if the F-bomb is audible to the entire gym or directed at me or another player I would ring that player up....not eject him/her. Now if it was in the context of "I'm am going to kick your f-bomb a$$ then I would probably eject the player for instigating a fight.

Just my 2 cents

AK ref SE

point of the question
 

the point of my post was to determine if this situation warranted a double T? the consensus seems to be that the Official cannot T up the player who kicked the loose ball and barely missed the others fingers,it is NOT unsportsmanelike unless he connected & cuased actual harm is that right?
I was thinking that this kicking scenario was equivalent to a player throwing a punch and not connecting. ???

Everyone seems to agree that the player who cursed should get at least a T.

Ever wonder (as ChuckElias) stated why the players vocabularies now include the ever so frequestly used F*** word--I suggest it is parents and OFFICIALS who tolerate this type language. Apparently a number of officials tolerate this type language from their kids. Or do they !! Or is it only when they officiate !!! I don't accept it from my children (who are now grown) and I am not going to accept it from your's either...playing ball or not. It's a "T".

Re: point of the question
 

Troward,
Was the kick meant to be malicious?
Was the missed punch meant to be malicious?
I see a difference.
I see different penalties based on adjudged intent.
mick

Not all children.
 

Officials are not the parants of these kids. It is not our job to teach morality and standards. Or at least not in the context of some rules that have little to do with morality. Giving a T does not mean you tolorate or not tolorate certain language. We are only officiating a game, not the game of life by giving a T. You can use some of the same skills to teach a kid a lesson and not blowing your whistle to do it. And it is not like we are only talking about kids. College students are not children. And HS students are almost adults. If you can find ways to accomplish what you aspire by not putting air in your whistle, then do it. Sometimes that will go further than giving a T signal.

Just an opinion.

But I agree with Mick, intent of all the actions are very important. You cannot and should not penalize something that was not on purpose. Things happen, it is a sport.

Peace

the point of my post was to determine if this situation warranted a double T?
----

F%$# no! The defender kicked the ball, that's a violation. It's also a good defensive play, just as deflecting a pass out of bounds is a good defensive play. Or it could have been a foul -- if he kicked the hand, or if he pushed to get his foot to where he could kick it. So, you either have one T for the F-bomb (and that's a matter of local custom and personal preference) or ya got zip -- just like you called. (Side Note: I can't figure out how to make quotes bold like everyone else does; can someone give me a hint?)

Re: Re: point of the question
 

Troward,
Was the missed punch meant to be malicious?
[/B][/QUOTE]Throwing a punch is defined as "fighting",whether contact is made or not.The penalty is always a flagrant foul,with accompanying ejection.See R4-18-1.If someone throws a punch,it's automatic--byebye!

Mr. DeNucci you are usually the one quoting references for rules, but you seemed to have forgotten it this time. Is that because you are broadly interpreting some rule that the rest of us has missed? I don't know of a rule that spells ejection for this, but I am not the rule guru that you are...

There's a fancy little icon below every post that says "quote". Click on it and you're on your way.

Re: Re: I'm interested in your experiences
 

What if the f-bomb is directed specifically at you?As in "f... you,ref!"?

Please don't destroy my illusions and tell me that you wouldn't unload somebody who said that to you.

Re: Re: Re: point of the question
 

Throwing a punch is defined as "fighting",whether contact is made or not.The penalty is always a flagrant foul,with accompanying ejection.See R4-18-1.If someone throws a punch,it's automatic--byebye! [/B][/QUOTE]

Aha! Thus, the difference. :)

The way I read this situation, the defender made a smart play. Defenders often make plays that will almost always end up in a violation. I see this as no different than a player sticking their foot out to block a pass to an open player under the basket. They deliberately stopped the ball with the foot. Usually, that is considered good defense when the alternative is a sure score. Sure, it's a violation, but it stopped the pass.

Re: Re: Re: I'm interested in your experiences
 

Well, I would talk to them, find out why they hate me and
ask how I need to change for us to be friends again...
yeah, that's it... ;)

They would be gone before they got to the "ck".

Re: Re: Re: Re: I'm interested in your experiences
 

Oh! I get it!
Very clever.

1) I am a structural engineer, a professional person (some would say, others would not). But since I was small boy I have been on construction sites where colorful language is the norm. I assure all the people who are reading this of the following: a) If you have straight hair I can curl it; b) If you have curly hair I can straighten it; c) If you have hair I can cause it to fall out; and c) If you have no hair I can make you grew it. It is suffice to say that in certain situations, my language would be described as colorful. Having said that lets look at the “F” bomb situation.


2) Why is the “F word” a flagrant technical foul. The rules say so.

NFHS R4-S19-A4: A flagrant foul may be a personal or technical foul of a violent or savage nature, or a technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable conduct. It may or may not be intentional. If personal, it involves, but is not limited to violent contact such as: striking, kicking and kneeing. If technical, it involves dead-ball contact or noncontact at any time which is extreme or persistent, vulgar or abusive conduct. Fighting is a flagrant act.

NCAA R4-S26-A5: Flagrant technical foul dead ball (women: flagrant foul). A flagrant foul shall be a technical foul when it involves either unsporting conduct that is extreme in nature, or severe, excessive contact against an opponent while the ball is dead. R4-S26-A5a: An exception is a foul by an airborne shooter.

FIBA: I would quote this rules code but the rules are spread over three different sections that requires a Philadelphia lawyer to put them all together.

Using the “F word” is “vulgar” under the NFHS rules code and would fall under “unsporting conduct that is extreme in nature” under the NCAA rules code.


3) My lovely wife and I have two sons, and we have taught them good manners from the time that they were little boys. Good manners and sportsmanlike conduct go hand-in-hand. In the world of sports good manners and sportsmanlike conduct cannot exist without the other. My sister and I were taught those same principles by our parents and my high school basketball coach and our high school golf coach.

The reason some players think that acting in an uncivil manner is acceptable is that our society has tolerated it. I have been a substitute teacher in the Toledo Public School District at the jr. H.S. and H.S. level, and many students use the “F-word” like the use chewing gum (I could not think of a better analogy, so lets not get started on the chewing gum thread). And when one of my students used the “F-word” that student gets a instant E-ticket ride to the Dean’s Office for the rest of the class period. I had once had a jr. H.S. principal tell me she does not expect her students to exhibit good manners because they have not been taught good manners at home. When I heard her I was stunned that she would admit to a parent and taxpayer in her school district that she allows such poor behavior from her students.

JR stated that officials are not parents of the athletes and therefore it is not an official’s job to teach the athletes morals and standards, but good manners and good sportsmanship are expected of the athletes, and when these norms are violated there are certain punishments that must be meted out by the game officials. I have heard in appropriate language used in a manner that only I and maybe one or two other players could hear and I have told them that as college men or women they are above using that kind of language. One would be surprised how quickly these young men and women get the point. And I have given technical fouls to college players for swearing and even tossed a college player years ago for using the “F-word.”

The point is that just because high school and college students are participating in sports is no excuse for them to not exhibit good manners and good sportsmanship.

I know one thing..............
 

I sure as hell do not want to be on the floor with you when you T a kid for saying the F-word to himself after missing a big shot. Especially when no one else heard them. I sure hope when you are the one that explains this to an angry coach.

I also think you entirely missed my point about officials not being parants or the morality police for players. It is our job and our job only to apply the rules and not to allow things to take place that violate the rules. It is also our job to use common sense and to understand the environment that we are at. At the college level, the coaches that are coaching are at work. You throwing out a player at that level is affecting or possibly affecting their job. If you are just throwing out players without warning, then I think that is totally irresponsible. It is not like in other parts of life a person would get fired or get fined just for language. If you do not approve of the language, you can accomplish that very same attitude by having a talk with a player or even a coach. No differnet than any other foul, usually you can warn or talk to a player before you go to such a drastic measure. I know you are going to say that many Flagrant fouls can happen without warning, and you are right. But if you are talking about a "personal" standard, I think you can be a little bit more responsible in your decisions.

But as Steve Pamon, Big Ten Football Crew Chief told me, "you have to do what your Supervisor wants you to do."

Peace

I've been gone all day, and had no idea what I'd started. Somewhere I'd gotten the idea (mistaken I now realize) that we all pretty much agreed (except Jeff) that if the F-bomb was aimed at an opponent, it was an automatic ejection. I don't always T for that quiet mad-at-self-missed-shot F word, and I wouldn't eject for the mad-a- self-yelled same although I would T, but when it's aimed at an opponent, it's headed for a fight, AS THIS TURNED OUT TO BE!! The fight started with that word, didn't it? Maybe in Chicag-land, this is no big deal, but around here, it's still a fightin' word, so to speak, and thus requires an E.

About the kick, I don't think I would call anything but a violation on this unless I really thought the kid was aiming for physical damage to the opponent. But just for the sake of a good arguement (and something a little different than the same ol' not-out-of-bounds throw in), why doesn't this fall in to the same sort of category as an intentional foul? It is an illegal act that is designed to remove an obvious advantage. Is the intentional rule restricted to contact?

All over Illinois.
 

Juulie if you have ever read anything I have said, I do not officiate only in the Chicago area. This would not be acceptable in Peoria, Springfield or even in Laharpe and all the farm towns in between. If you are just ejecting kids over the F-word without warning or talking to, then as I stated before, you might be watching more than officiating. Ever seen a kid dislocate his ankle on a layup? I was not going to step in a T the kid because of the language that came out of his mouth while he is rolling around in play.

I did a football game about a month ago and had one Black player say to another Black player, "good play n***a." Now under NF Football Rules, the same words apply almost identically. Being an African-American myself I promply went to the kid that said those words and told him, "That is not acceptable, you are not at home with your friends, and you are in a professional arena. If I hear you say that again, you will not play any longer." Guess what happen? I did not have this problem again and the kid apologized to me and did not do it again. Now this is in a football game where it is a lot harder to hear things on the sidelines. No one knew I even took care of this problem. And it could not be used as an issue and I would not be precieved as being "over officious."

Just my opinion.

Peace

What do you do when a player (varsity game) that is down after blowing out his knee and at the top of his lungs starts repeatedly saying the f-bomb? The coach and ref are telling him to shut-up but this kid just won't quit. You can eject him but know that he is probably out for the year with this injury. And by the way this happened at a small christian school. You could hear a pin drop in the gym other than the kid yelling.

Speaking of morality.
 

Christian schools and foul language go hand and hand in my experience. Some of the most foul language coaches and players are at these institutions. So right after the pregame prayer, the coaches start firing up the F-bombs left and right. :D

Peace

Re: Speaking of morality.
 

I have also reffed at Christian schools (NFHS), and I have found quite the <i>opposite</i> to be true. Not that the kids don't still get excited and mess up, but the atmosphere is <b>greatly</b> improved.

Am I responsible for morality? No. But I am responsible for enforcing good sportsmanship defined by NFHS that is arguably based upon some moral principles. While I don't agree with Mark T. that the f-bomb by itself is an automatic ejection, I do appreciate and respect his promotion of high standards for good sportsmanship.

I do not ref for the money, the glory, or as a profession. I like basketball; I like working with the kids; and I like the exercise. If standing up for good sportsmanship and holding the players on the court to a higher standard than that to which they may be accustomed prevents me from "advancing," so be it.

Poor sportsmanship, bad language, and poor role models are, in my opinion, the greatest problem in athletics. (I wouldn't even take my kids to an NBA game today.) I believe I can do something about that in a small way as a ref if I stand up to it when I see it.

As I haven't even had my coffee yet this morning, I'll stop my sermon now. I will add, however, that I like the way this forum continues to force me to look deeper into the rules and their applications. Clear as mud sometimes...

Re: Re: Speaking of morality.
 

Actually I am not talking about the kids. When I did a football a few weeks ago that was close and went down to the last minute, one of the coaches came out of the press box to curse out one of my partners after the game. This coach went on to threaten and say things like, "I am going to kick your f**king a$$!!" While be bombarded with other cursing tirades with the fans at the game. And this was just one close game. I am not speaking of the times a team is getting beat up on and this happens.

Peace

Re: Re: Re: Speaking of morality.
 

Rut,
You don't sleep.
Geez!
mick

Sleep deprivation
 

It seems that way sometimes.

Peace

Re: All over Illinois.
 

Jeff-- Where DO you ref, then? I guess I'm confused.

If you had read what I just wrote, you will see that I said I specifically will not T for the quiet under the breath kind of stuff. And only T if it's "loud enough to hear in the second row." I can't believe it would play in Peoria, frankly. I know people who live in rural Indiana and Illinois--lots of them. They would not find this acceptable. Even many inner-city folk here in Portland would be horrified if I let it go, when it's loud enough to hear in the second row. In your area, apparently, this is not the case. Great. I would expect that most of the rest of the country is more like Portland.

In your other situation, I think that you handled it well. Even white housewife me knows that that particular word is often acceptable between African-Americans when it has an entirely different meaning if spoken by a non-black. I

I never said my "list" was a list of 100% responses. There are about 5 things on my list where I will "automatically give a T if..." Other items on the list have the word "if" in them. One item is not so much a word or collection of words as a concept, "taunting". You weren't overly officious to talk to some guys about some questionable language, and I'm not overly officious to decide ahead of time about certain responses to certain situations.

Re: Re: All over Illinois.
 

Juulie, I do not and never have worked in a small area. I grew up in Western Illinois and moved to a Suburb of Chicago almost 4 years ago. I have never stopped officiating where I began my career and literally work in all types of places throughout the state. I work over 20 conferences from South of Springfield to the Wisconsin/Illinois boarder.

I do not think we ever discussed how loud anyone cursed. As a matter of fact, that never was an issue in this discussion. Obviously if someone in the second row of a very loud gym hears something, that is obvious and can be dealt with appropriately. Not a single person would complain or could complain with a straight face. But usually (at least in my experience) most players and even coaches do not curse loud enough so that the second row can hear them. Participants are usually smart enough not to let the entire world here them. If you give a T and you were the only person that hears them, especially not in a certain context. Just like everything else we should call, if no one else knows it but you, it might not be the best call to make. Especially with something that has such a harsh penalty like ejection.

Juulie, this is not the conversation about the lists. That was another conversation.

Peace

Now-Now Mark. They are only children-uh-I mean adults with a nasty mouth.

Maybe its just me, but that is an interpretation that I just haven't ever seen or heard. If that is the way you interpret the rule, that is great, but that isn't how I interpret the rule and would call it differently.

Quote:

3) My lovely wife and I have two sons, and we have taught them good manners from the time that they were little boys. Good manners and sportsmanlike conduct go hand-in-hand. In the world of sports good manners and sportsmanlike conduct cannot exist without the other. My sister and I were taught those same principles by our parents and my high school basketball coach and our high school golf coach. The reason some players think that acting in an uncivil manner is acceptable is that our society has tolerated it. I have been a substitute teacher in the Toledo Public School District at the jr. H.S. and H.S. level, and many students use the “F-word” like the use chewing gum (I could not think of a better analogy, so lets not get started on the chewing gum thread). And when one of my students used the “F-word” that student gets a instant E-ticket ride to the Dean’s Office for the rest of the class period. I had once had a jr. H.S. principal tell me she does not expect her students to exhibit good manners because they have not been taught good manners at home. When I heard her I was stunned that she would admit to a parent and taxpayer in her school district that she allows such poor behavior from her students. JR stated that officials are not parents of the athletes and therefore it is not an official’s job to teach the athletes morals and standards, but good manners and good sportsmanship are expected of the athletes, and when these norms are violated there are certain punishments that must be meted out by the game officials. I have heard in appropriate language used in a manner that only I and maybe one or two other players could hear and I have told them that as college men or women they are above using that kind of language. One would be surprised how quickly these young men and women get the point. And I have given technical fouls to college players for swearing and even tossed a college player years ago for using the “F-word.” The point is that just because high school and college students are participating in sports is no excuse for them to not exhibit good manners and good sportsmanship.

I agree that there is a lack of sportsmanship and it is largely due to no one requiring kids to exhibit respect and decorum. I just can't see the logic you use in your interpretation of the rule. I am in no way suggesting that kids shouldn't be penalized for inappropriate language, but the penalty should fit the crime. I don't think your interpretation does.

Stripes
 

Maybe the the Vanderbilt Football Coach would love Mark's approach (Watch ESPN SportsCenter)

Peace

Re: Stripes
 

No question. I wouldn't mind Mark's approach, it would be very easy to administer--I just don't see the rule basis in it.

Re: Re: Stripes
 

1) I haven't had a chance to watch Sports Center the last couple of days, so please fill me in.

2) If the "F-word" does not fit the definition of vulgar or unsporting conduct that is extreme in nature, then we have a real problem in our society.

Like I said before, do what your assignor wants you to do.
 

Vanderbilt coach has a policy of no cursing at all. He makes the players run if they curse anytime, anywhere on the field. He makes them do up-downs, run sprints or many other physical activity for violating a team rule. As a result, the players have come up with their own language. The report was rather funny. They came up with all these made up words to replace actual curse words.

It is not a matter of what the society thinks, it is a matter of context. Like I said before, there has to be some context to what they are saying. I am not going to throw out a kid, especially in college for using this word. I am going to use common sense and understand who they are saying it to and why they are saying it. My job is to get in and get out, not to cause trouble. And like Ed Hightower says, "when you call a T, it should make the game better." I just do not see how throwing a kid out for one F-word makes the game better.

Peace

JR thanks for the quick reply concerning the Vanderbilt coach.

I never said that I would "T" or eject a player for using the "F-word" if I were the only other person to hear him/her. If that is the case, you can be sure that I will have be having a talk with him/her. BUT, if I am not the only person that hears the "F-word", then the player is gone.

We are all individuals
 

That is your right. I just do not agree with it. But as I will continue to say, if your assignors agree with that practice, then keep doing it. But if I did that, I might not see another game in those conferences.

Peace

Did I miss something? Here is your original post, in whole, from this thread.

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Quote:

Are you kidding, when a youth drops the "F" bomb for any reason it is an ejection. The "F" bomb is 100% completely unacceptable at the youth, high school, and college level. And in a perfect world I would also like to think that since the vast majority of professional players are college educated that the "F" bomb would result in an ejection too. But as I stated before, at the youth, H.S., and college level, the "F" bomb means ejection.

Maybe 100% completely unacceptable means something different to you than it does to me. That criteria leaves no leeway for any usage of the "f word".

I agree that others hearing the word, in most cases call for a T, but I still don't agree about the ejection.

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Quote:

2) If the "F-word" does not fit the definition of vulgar or unsporting conduct that is extreme in nature, then we have a real problem in our society.

I agree that our society has a problem with this, but don't we have to apply society's standards rather than our own? There is already a problem with officials not being consistent and this will only further muddy the water. Don't misunderstand, I think it is vulgar and highly inappropriate, but many in our society do not agree with us.

the tone is set by the stripes
 

Should we be surprized at the laxness of coaches and fans concerning this subject (profanity)? It was only a couple of months ago that the Harlem little leaguers did their showboating act and people tried to condone it by saying..."well, that is just the environment where they are growing up". If we use this logic, then things will never get better.

Kids, and adults for that matter, will adhere to the stipulations put on them. They will raise their standards when required to do so. The argument that it is an inner-city game or that the coaches allow their players to do it should make absolutely no difference to the officials. By our code of ethics, we are actually held to a higher standard than the coaches and players. "If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying" is acceptable for the teams...but just let there be any suggestion of cheating by the officials and there is such a hailstorm that nobody survives. Don't be afraid of forcing others to bring themselves up out of the gutter and perform in a manner that society would endorse outside of the athletic arena. Remember, these games are an extention of the classroom, and if the english or history teacher would not allow the act to occur in that class, it is our responsibility to make sure that the act does not go unpunished in our "class room".

Because we are supposed to be at this level, it should follow that we should try to up the standards of what we expect in our games. While a slight muttering may be ignored, the too often exibitions of profanity and taunting that are passed on need to be addressed...and addressed firmly.

If your supervisor says don't take care of the situation, if you really have any integrity, you must decide if that supervisor is really worth working for.

Re: the tone is set by the stripes
 

I am all for enforcing the rule, but placing a 100% unacceptable label isn't realistic, IMO. We all know of situations where we would excuse it (due to volume, injury, etc.), but I beleive that most of us would penalize the offense appropriately. The rationale for ejection at the HS and higher levels has never, IMO, been justified. That is all that I am looking for from the proponents. I see that a T is appropriate, but not ejection and until I can be shown rule-wise that it is I, for one, will continue to just call the T.

Good post,Biggie!

I've always found that the coaches and players will figure out awful quick exactly what they can get away with in any particular game.They're not dumb.If the officials are consistent as to what they call or don't call,the teams will adjust to them.It's not our job to adjust to the teams.

Not to punish??
 

I do not think anyone (I know I did not) say anything about letting it go. We are talking about the actual punishment. And ejection to me is very harsh. We are not talking about a church service here, we are talking about a game. If it is the extention of the classroom, then you try to teach behavior and sometimes that might mean doing nothing but talking. And I am sure different teachers use different tactics to accomplish the very same goal. Again, I see no such ruling for one usage of the F-word. If there is please tell me. But I am not going to jeapordize my career trying to be a pioneer for something that is not accepted. If that was the attitude I took in all my sports (especially in football) I might never see another game. I totally agree in having standards, but I do not agree with everyone what the punishment should be.

Peace