5th Foul - Game management.
 

Last night, 2 mnutes, 4th quarter ( I observed, from behind the scorer's table), 6'1" V30 was called for her 5th, a shooting foul, by Umpire.
V30, visitors best scorer, walked toward the bench knowing it was her 5th.
(U did not notify C coach or V30.)

V coach told V30 to stay on the floor, so V30 stopped, turned around and watched the other players line up.
U and R have the players lined up and are prepared to accept the replacement, but nobody is moving at V's bench.

R, who was going to administer the free throws, then tossed the ball to U and walked to V bench.
He politely told V coach that V30 had just received her 5th. V coach quietly vented to R, R quietly listened, and V coach then asked for a time-out.





[Edited by mick on Oct 23rd, 2002 at 08:17 AM]

So, why didn't U inform coach and player of 5th? Was it too controversial to go near the coach?

It's pretty standard procedure around here to have a non-calling official report a player's fifth foul to the coach. Just another means to avoid a conflict that might lead to a technical foul. We don't line the rest of the players up, though, or make the disqualified player remain on the court; these would seem to draw more attention to the disqualification and increase the potential for conflict.

What is the question
 

I am not sure what your is question, but I am guessing that you are wondering what the procedure is and in this case could this be unsportsmanlike.

officicals and their duties
RULE 2.8.4 - notify the coach and then notify the player on a disqualification.

The case book gives a little bit more information - It is recommended that the official who called the foul be responsible for notification. The scorer is to indicate to that official when a player(s) has committed his/her fifth foul (personal and technical) or second technical foul. The calling official will immediately notify the coach and then the player of the disqualification. The player is officially disqualified and becomes bench personnel when the coach is notified. The official then instructs the timer to begin the 30-second replacement period.

If the scorer never lets the officials know then IS it the responsiblity of the coach or player to let the official know that they have fouled out? NO, Even if they know that they have fouled out they don't have the responsibility to let the official know.

Until you let the coach and player know of the the disqualification the player is still a valid player and not bench personnel.

Hey if we as a team, (the scorer, timer, and officials) miss that a player has fouled out then I am going to eat it.

Neither official was informed while U was <u>10' in front of the table</u>. He turned his back on the table went way over to the <u>sideline opposite</u>, saw the scorekeeper signal 5th foul, saw that the Coach and V30 knew it was the 5th and, I guess, decided that was enough information.

The U shoulda followed the proper procedure re:notifications. The coach vented without putting on a show.Sounds like the R did a good job on this play getting everything back on track.

I am a proponent of telling the coach myself. If I called it, I should be man enough to domy job. I will not get into a discussion about the call. I simply inform the coach and go to the table to stat the 30 sec clock. I think that sending your partner can be percieved as being afraid of the coach or as not liking your call. If I know a coach is ready to blow his stack at me I might have my partner do it, but 99% of the time I go.

Re: What is the question
 

Spaman,
Thanks. Good procedure quote.
My purpose was to offer a real game sitch with a quirk.
Forewarned....
mick

Stripes
 

I completely agree. I think it is a cop out to always have the non-calling official tell the coach who fouled out. If you are man/women enough to call the foul, you can inform the coach who fouled out. It does not mean you go over had shake the hand of the coach, but you probably are the only person that knows who and what happened.

I know in NCAA Women's Basketball, we have to go table side after every call. The NBA does the same, so it can be done in my opinion.

Peace

It's not a question of manliness or copping out; it's game management. If the foul call deserves an explanation to the coach, give it and get out. Why create or prolong a potential conflict?

Let us put it this way.
 

If you are always running away, call it whatever you want, you are not going to be able to manage much. I think it is a bigger problem to have a coach screeming across the floor at an official that made the call and having an official that knows nothing always explaining it.

Peace

Either way works just fine, stan.
With your presence, there ain't gonna be anyone to question you either way.

We don't have that local procedure U.P. here, but I remember it being discussed.... somewhere. Actually, I think it may be a three-man mechanic where the Center is gone and the Trail may let 'em know. Man it's been a long time since I worked three. Tomorrow night, ...finally!

I don't mind telling the coach, "That's Five, Coach." And I welcome the opportunity to offer an indirect "T". :)

If you called the foul, who knows what happened better than you? I agree that a quick explanation and get out is the right course of action. You may not feel like it is a manliness issue, but I have had several patners (who were the R) who said that they refused to go to the coach for the 5th if they called it. Sounds like they are afraid to me. This may not be the case across the board, but I think it accounts for a lot of it.

If you want me, as your partner, to take the 5th foul, I'll do it, but how will it reflect on you if I am the only official who reports the 5th foul to the coaches? If you think they won't notice that, you are mistaken. IMO, your credibility will be shot.

Experimental rule
 

I also think that with the experimental rule that Illinois uses by having the coaches have to bring in the subs for a disqualified player "immediately." You do not have the 30 second "timeout" that a coach takes so everything moves faster. The most popular way that officials would handle that would be to tell the coach themselves who fouled out then go opposite the table. The official coming to fill in the space "speeds" up the process and we move on with the game. Worked well all season for me.

Peace

Hey Mick - did the R grant the time-out? Or did he make the coach bring a sub in before granting the time-out??

Time-out first.
But there wasn't any hollerin'. :)

oops...sounds like both of them need to slow down a little to avoid those brain-cramps!

Re: Stripes
 

You don't go table side on fouls in backcourt or offensive fouls.

And, you have the option of not going tableside if an adversarial situation exists.

Not to be too picky, but we do go tableside on fouls in the backcourt which result in free throws being shot...

Bob J
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bob jenkins

Quote:

You don't go table side on fouls in backcourt or offensive fouls. And, you have the option of not going tableside if an adversarial situation exists.

Well I do not have the CCA Manuals for this year yet, so I do not know completely about all the changes. But Barbra Jacobs told us at the NCAA meeting that they want you us to go table side to explain calls that we make to coaches. Yes it might be an option, but they do not want you to make a habit of going away from the coaches. This is an NBA and WNBA mechanic and this is how they want us to operate.

Peace

Re: Bob J
 

I understand.

I was only reacting to your "on all fouls" statement (or whatever it was).

The point is, just like it was incorrect to say "always away from the table" last year (and still is in HS), it's incorrect to say "always table side" this year.

I see your point, but........
 

Well Bob I guess it is just how you look at it. When I am working a College Women's game, I am always going table side. That is how they want you to do it, that is what I am going to do. To me it is not an option. And when I am doing a HS game and a player fouls out, I always go tell the coach their player fouled out. I would rather be next to them when they "go off" then be across the court and have them yelling at me and I do not hear or understand why they are getting upset. If I am next to a coach, my <b>physical presence</b> will alleviate many of these problems. To me if you are always running, you will be precieved as a coward. And like Stripes said, many guys are always trying to get away from coaches when I feel that your standing up and hearing them out would be a better. Many times coaches just want you to listen to them, you cannot listen if you are always going away from them.

Just an opinion.

Peace