Is this a foul?
 

A lot of controversy over last night's UTK-UGA game.

Here's the finish: YouTube - Tennessee's Brian Williams Sinks Falling Over The Back Buzzer Beater Against Georgia

I'm a football official, so I know what appears to be a foul isn't always a foul. I don't know the rules of basketball that well, and after skimming through the NCAA rulebook, I'm still not sure what should have been called here.

Did UTK's Williams foul UGA's Barnes? Or was Barnes the one who initiated contact by backing into Williams?

All I've learned for sure is there is no such thing as "over the back." ;)

Based on the angles they show, I can live with what was called. The main issue I would like to see is if the arm was contacted before the ball. I cannot tell that the player from behind was not vertical. Actually it looked like the Georgia player might have backed up into the Tennessee player.

I took a closer look at the video, if anything the Georgia player grabbed the right arm of the Tennessee player. If anything was going to be called it should have been on the Georgia player.

Peace

There is such as a think as an "over the back" but usually it is more of through the back".

As far as the play in question, after looking at it several times and pausing it at the point of play, if I had to call anything I would call a hold on the GA player as the UT player had both hands on the ball and the GA player was holding onto his arm as he was falling into him. The question you have to answer is if the UT player truly had control of the ball at the point of the potential foul. I think he did after looking at it several times but at first glance in real time I would have went with no foul.

Robby

Tough one
 

That really is a close one in live speed. But I think I go no-call here too. A player is entitled to their spot on the floor and to jump straight up. The Tenn player reaches his arms over the Georgia player but what fans want called "over the back" is not really a foul. That foul occurs when there is contact from a player "going through" a player or dislodges them from their spot and is actually a "push."

And when you look closely at the slow motion replay, you can see that the Georgia player actually grabs the Tenn players' arm. While I'm sure plenty of people were screaming "over the back" its a good no-call to me. And you could have even had a foul on the GA player on the shot but that's a good no-call as well.

I agree with Rut. Sometimes, you get a taller player literally reaching over the top of a shorter player to grab a rebound. Take a look at the second replay. It looks to me like the UT player is moving backwards when he catches the ball and shoots it. I didn't see any contact that would be a foul prior to that.

I see this type of play alot in girls games, when one team has a really tall girl and the others are just average height.

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For convenience's sake.

Can you show anyone in the rulebook where that is stated as any violation of the rules?

Peace

True, in the rule book there is no "over the back" violation but there are times a push from behind during a rebound is an "over the back"/"through the back" foul; however, I have never reported a "over the back" foul at the table ;)

I did have a rookie U one night that called "over the back" and used some weird mechanic I had never seen before or since :eek: not only did he use the wrong mechanic I don't think he was correct but he was Lead.

If you watch the replay from the court level camera at the opposite end of the court you will see Williams was actually moving backwards away from the Georgia player when grabbed the rebound.

Was it the Boris Karloff mechanic?

From what we can see from the angles shown, I agree. If anything, it should be a call on the Georgia player - good no call IMHO.

I think he's contracted the truncated contraction disease that showed up here a day or so ago. I think he meant "isn't".

As for the play/call. Looked right to me. The UT rebounder was jumping away from the basket.....not likely to be a foul on him unless he grabs the player in front and drags him back too.

I've said this before. Isn't the "there is no such thing as over the back" thing about to outlive his usefulness? Don't we know what they're asking for?


"Come on ref! That's a pushing foul on that guy trying to rebound over my guy who had inside position. I think he displaced him!"

Nobody complains when they yell "Walking!" That's not in the books either.

No, it hasn't outlived it's usefulness....far from it. In conveys a completely wrong idea. It we started using it, it would only make it far more difficult to get even players and coaches to realize that tall is not illegal.

+1

Great minds think alike even if one of them is a Western Illinois and UMichigan fan. :D

MTD, Sr.

That's what I saw too. White was surprised when a pair of arms reached around his head and rebounded the ball. Rather than grabbing the ball and getting a held ball, he started to grab the arm. The player shot through the contact and made the bucket. Good no call X 2.

I went to a UG forum to see what they are saying and obviously they are 100% that was a bad call. I agree with you all that the Georgia player was pushing back and grabbed the arm of the Tenn player so either a no call or a foul on the Georgia player.

No, it's not over-the-back. When fans scream for that, they want the taller player punished for reaching into space (90% of the time). To even state "there is such a thing as over the back" is just flat out wrong; especially when talking to someone who's admittedly new to basketball rules.

Love the Frankenstein mechanics being displayed by the crowd.

What I can't see from the one time I watched this, is whether the Tenn player "held down" the GA player. If so, that could be a foul. But, I'll defer to the officials on the game on this.

The Tenn player definitely held down the GA player, by using his upper arm against B's shoulder.

In fact, that upper arm not only hindered B's desired movement, it was the cause of B moving backwards. B's initial jump was straight up. After the contact initiated by A, B was forced backwards a total of 3 steps. In addition, A's contact even forced B's body to the left.

Yes A got the ball legally, that is, without contact to B. But after he had control, he's still in B's vertical space, and used his upper arm which prevented B from performing any actions on his own accord.

I've got a player control foul, go to overtime.

Yep - you got it. I told him at half time that "over the back" wasn't a valid call and his mechanic certainly wasn't in the book. I tried to explain the difference between going over teh top of someone to get the rebound without fouling and a push from behind to get to the ball. I am not sure he "got it" but at least there were no other weird mechnics that evening :rolleyes:

Actually the correct call, by rule, without a doubt would be 3 seconds. Williams enters the lane at :07 ... I know, I know, we would never call it in that situation. But still, that is clearly UGA's best argument

as a newer official, i have to ask...would this have been called differently if this play had occurred halfway through the first half, instead of at the end of the game?

I doubt that would be called in ANY situation ANYWHERE. Only a fanboy would ever dream of arguing that one.

No.

And what would you call 10:00 in that didn't get called here?

Just asking to better understand in general...when should a 3 second violation be called? My general approach has been to give the players 4-5 seconds while verbally encouraging them out of the lane and only calling it if they stay camped out.

I generally agree with this approach and use it myself. In the video, about the point you get to around 4 in the count, the three point shot goes up. So, about the time you would start to think about blowing your whistle, team control ends. It wouldn't get called at the 10:00 minute mark of the first half, either.

I refer to this as the "creeping death" foul. I'll do this once a season or so when I know my partner is looking just to crack him up.

Ha ha ha. (Stop for breath.) Ha ha ha.

My approach is to call the violations when they pretty much call themselves. I am also of the belief that if a 3-second violation is an official's best call they're in a lot of trouble.

So this means I may call 5 or so of these a year. I went an entire season once without calling one. Idiot fans and coaches are going to yell for this whether or not the conditions exist, so I'm certainly not going to listen to them. And I'm not going to pay much attention to a player with a toe in the lane on the weak side (although some coaches think we should be playing "gotcha" with those).

You forgot the smilely.

Once the A had the ball, there is no way that verticality is meant to be applied like you describe. In fact, B was not in LGP (in the path but never facing) and was not entitled to the rights of LGP at all...including verticality. If B did choose to jump into A's arms, you have a foul on B.

Wow. I'm a bit overwhelmed by the level of response. Thanks, everyone!

It's funny how the media and fans have reacted to this play. The local university here lost on a conventional three point play at the buzzer last night (May have to post that one too) where a foul was called and our fans are predictably pulling the "You can't call a foul at that point in the game" card. Then they posted this video and are adamant that it was a foul and that the officials "let them play" and didn't decide the game.

That one could've been easily missed. Instinct like the comentators would be to antisipate the push. I think it was a great no call however. To bad the game isn't played in slow mo so we get all those correct all the time lol.

It's that double edged sword. People accuse us of "swallowing our whistles" at the end of the game and say we should call the game the same way at the beginning and the end. But then of course, when a foul call IS made, we're told, "you got to let the players decide the game." As if a player fouling an opponent isn't HIM deciding the game.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. That's why we get paid the big bucks. :cool: