My Association is recommneding we all develop pre-season our list of words or phrases that will get the T.

What was recommended:

1) F Bombs
2) Cultural slurs
3) Blasphemy ("Gods name in vain")
4) Individual insults meant obviously to taunt/hurt

Comments?

I don't have a list. I've T'ed coaches for questioning a
travel call. I've ignored f bombs. Each situation is
different except each T should improve the game.

Seems to me its smart to have a list in your head, but I wouldn't share it with anyone (except maybe your partner) ahead of time. Also, it might save some trouble to compare lists with others in your association. For instance, it may be that in your area, the f-bomb is an automatic DQ, but how to treat "the Lord's name in vain" is less rigid. Or whatever. I think, although we each have our own hot-button issues, we should be at least in the same ball-park with other refs in our locales.

Me, too.
I <u>won't</u> have a list.

You have every right to come up with a list, but I think it seems kind of silly to me. None of these address context or situations. If you want to consider Blasphemy, then maybe you need to check the religious affiliation of the folks making the comments. Not everyone holds the same religious beliefs. If that was the case then Catholic Schools and other religious schools would act better during sporting events. And considering the culural slurs are differnet to differnet people. Where do you draw the line? Because above all else, when you give a T you have to be able to explain and have your judgement not challenged. No differnet than calling a violation or a foul, you do not want such a harsh penalty to be ambiguous. In my opinion, many of these are ambiguous.

Just an opinion.

Peace

A list
 

I agree with the posters who say you need to take each play in context. I did a boys JV game a couple of years ago where A1 jumped out of bounds to save a ball along the base line. As the ball was blindly thrown back toward the court, it hit B1 in the groin area. As B1 collaped to the floor, he did say (in a weak voice) "Oh F**k". I chose to pass on that one. I blew the whistle for an injury time out and who comes out? The coach and a young lady trainer! There was a lot of blushing going on.

I am sure if the fed wanted us to use a list it would be in the rule book.

I think you get yourself into trouble by saying this will always be a T.

Let's face it one of those things happen just about every game. Are you guys really going to call 1-2 T's a game because you have a list?

You need to use common sense and apply the rule to the sitch.

Like the kid in the previous post who took one for the team, even if it was louder than a whisper, I would have let that go. He earned it.

Agreed. We shouldn't be making up our own rules.

You set your personal limits and even they change from day to day and game to game. Work to the situation.

Coaches probably recognise the changing situation also. One game he's got a ref that swears right along with him and the next game he's got Pious Peter that T's every utterance.

Hey Tony, how "downtown" can you really be in Idaho? :)

Seriously, welcome to the basketball side of things. I see that you usually hang out on the baseball side. Nice to have you here.

Chuck

Obviously, you've never been to Idaho Falls ;)

Big time. :cool: Very big time. :D

Obviously, you've never been to Idaho Falls ;)[/B][/QUOTE]I spent a week there one day.

I agree with many of the posts here. Cursing is subjective and technical fouls are even more so. It is impractical and pointless to try and say x,y&z always constitute tech fouls.

An incident occurred to me several years ago, I was refereeing a former Yugoslavian league player and he objected to one of my calls. He started talking to me quite loudly in Yugoslavian and after a while I t'd him. His tema-mate (and captain) asked how I could T him, and wanted to know if I spoke Yugoslavian. I don't, but could definitely tell by his body language and tone of voice that he wasn't complementing me on my pants :)

Use your judgement, sometime the F-word is a tech, sometimes it isn't.

I went to school at which about half the students were from outside the country - you can tell pretty obviously when someone is using profanity directed toward you.

Of course, the best is when I ref soccer - I know the meanings of a good portion of swears in Spanish. :)

Well, there's no denying that you guys are all better refs than me, and it may be that when I'm at your level, I won't be sticking to a list anymore. With as little experience as I've got, it has been helpful to me to think some things out ahead of time. That way I'm not caught off guard, and I'm not re-acting out of emotion. So I made a little list of sub-rules for myself. It has helped a lot. I don't have to stick to them rigidly, but it gives me a starting place to think something through.

The first coach I had to eject was near the end of my first season. He was a real jerk, (still is, everyone else agrees!). My partner had already given him one T, and then I heard him curse, although it was very quiet. Was it at me? Without question. Would I do it again? I'm not sure, but the fallout was so nasty, that I spent a lot of tiem thinking about it. I reacted emotionally, to the profanity, but with more fore-thought, I might have handled things differently. So I started going over situations in my head, making patterns in my thinking. Which ended up as a little list of rules. It has served me well, and I think other newer refs might also benefit from the exercise.

You might have "hot button" issues...........
 

but I would not want to have a list of things that are always going to warrant a T. Because if your list is violated, you will feel compelled to always give a T. Maybe there should be things that you have to address, but sometimes a T is only going exacerbate the situation. I know people do not want to here this, but if your "presence" is such that you exsude control or competence, you might be able to avoid silly Ts and having to threaten players and coaches for behavior. Now for those that think I make this kind of stuff up, should have gone to one of my association meeting tonight. A very will respected and veteran official said the very thing to a group of newer officials tonight. See all we are talking about is conflict resolution and if all you want to do is punish every single infraction or possible infraction, all you will be remembered as someone with a short fuse. I think you should always go into a game with a plan, but to say "no matter what, these are Ts" I think is not a very good tactic to officiating overall.

It is not just how we make calls, we will be judged by the way we deal with the people in the game. If we get that right, we will be precieved as competent in other areas. Officiating is much more a people business than it is what the rules are and how we apply them.

All the good officials keep making that point over and over again.

Peace

RefDaddy,

I agree with the others that deciding ahead of time what is going to be a "T" doesn't always work. There may be some actions that are automatic though.
A clipboard slammed to the ground by a coach. A coach kicking a bleacher so loud that everyone in the gym hears it.

Rut,

<i>It is not just how we make calls, we will be judged by the way we deal with the people in the game.</i>

Agreed

<i>Officiating is much more a people business than it is what the rules are and how we apply them.</i>

No, actually it's both. If you don't know the rules and how to apply them, your people skills won't help you B.S. your way through.

<i>All the good officials keep making that point over and over again.</i>

Actually, good officials probably make that point once. Sub-par, inferior officials keep bringing it up over and over and over and over.

Z

rainmaker-

I'm sure I have less formal training and much lower levels of experience than you-- I was never formally trained, but reffed 5th-8th grade BBall for several years for my old school many years ago, and will probably try to ref "for real" when the kids get older. (I also reffed a lot of kids soccer starting when I was very young.) With that disclaimer, let me make a suggestion:

Don't think of yourlist as a "list," but as general guidelines to use to assist in exercising your judgment quickly. I'll bet if you posted your list, the clever minds here could come up with an exception to almost every entry on the list. At the same time, having thought of various scenarios -- and, hopefully, what might be exceptions to those scenarios -- I'd bet you'll be in a better position to make a quick decision exercising discretion when the time comes. But for the good of the game, I humbly submit, every T should be an exercise of considered discretion, not a mechanical application of a list of preconsidered thoughts.

In accordance with most of the posters above, I too agree that if a "list" is in mind, the mere sound of the word may trigger a reflex and an accidental, irrevocable penalty.

Whoa,that's way too deep for me!

I've always gone by the simple rule - " If thou pisseth me off, thou shall get your a$$ T'd up".

Works for me!

I always try to use this tip a mentor gave me awhile ago..We do not give out T's, coaches and players earn them, we just administer it. Make sure it is something you can explain in a few words or better yet not at all so everyone can see why the person earned it...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Quote:

I've always gone by the simple rule - " If thou pisseth me off, thou shall get your a$$ T'd up". Works for me!

Some of us prefer to just slap 'em.

I did not say that actions did not warrant automatic or easy decisions about giving a T. But even slamming a clipboard is going to have some context. If a coach is clearly mad at his own players, I might pass (timeout situation). But if that action is at all directed at me, I do not have much to think about. Again this is personal and you have to decide what crosses the line for you own games.


Z, we are just not going to agree on this. I respect how you feel, but have had too many D1 and pro officials say that officiating is about people (different sports too). Every coach is going to express distain for situations that you call. They are not going to always know the rule or understand why you made that call. The equalizer is how you explain, not explain, or just simply handle those conflicts. Because many conferences or places I work, when I have messed up with a call of some kind, I was given a pass or my call was accepted because of who I was. I have worked with several officials that the coaches stayed away from no matter what they called, because they had a very good reputation as being a very good official. So on the boarderline call, their call was accepted much more than myself who they did not know or had never seen. Just because you have people skills to explain your calls does not mean at all that you had to BS your way through anything. All it might mean is that you are approachable and the coach and sometimes player feel you are hearing them and paying attention to their concerns. Ignoring coaches can just make them think you only care about being right.


<i>All the good officials keep making that point over and over again.</i>

Like anything, officiating is product of where you come from and who is teaching you. I fortunately have come in contact and belong to some very good associations with officials literally from all different levels. From the varsity State Final Official and State Rules Interpreter, to the NBA Official (NFL too). I have been very fortunate to listen to many of these accomplished officials speak. And the reacurring theme, is <b>people skills and common sense.</b> Not what was your test score last year. Not what rule you can quote. Not how you understand all the ins and outs of 2-10, but dealing with people and being approachable. Not ignoring coaches or how many Ts you can give, but being approachable. If all you can do is think of ways to T coaches, then that is what you will be remembered for.

Peace

<i> But even slamming a clipboard is going to have some context. If a coach is clearly mad at his own players, I might pass (timeout situation).</i>

Perhaps true. I did not think of that possibility as I have only seen one clipboard flung and it was in frustration at a "non-call." I might T the coach even if it was directed at his own players though as tossing a clipboard for any reason is starting to get pretty abusive. But your point is that even that action is a personal decision and I agree.

<i>Every coach is going to express distain for situations that you call. They are not going to always know the rule or understand why you made that call. The equalizer is how you explain, not explain, or just simply handle those conflicts.
</i>

True......at that point in time. But you better know the rule. I have seen conferences (even in high school) ordered games resumed from certain points because the officials did not know a rule. I have never seen them disciplined because they failed to emit great presence. Last year, an important H.S. game here went into overtime. Rather than start the O.T. with a jump ball, the officials continued on with the alternating procedure. The conference ordered the game resumed from that point with the same two refs. Talk about embarrassing!

<i>Because many conferences or places I work, when I have messed up with a call of some kind, I was given a pass or my call was accepted because of who I was. I have worked with several officials that the coaches stayed away from no matter what they called, because they had a very good reputation as being a very good official.</i>

And I have no doubt that the coaches have taken note that these same refs know the rulebook inside and out as well.

<i>All it might mean is that you are approachable and the coach and sometimes player feel you are hearing them and paying attention to their concerns. Ignoring coaches can just make them think you only care about being right.</i>

Rut, I agree that being approachable is a great trait (although there are times when it's best to stay away from a frustrated coach). Coaches are always going to question judgment on calls that go against them regardless of your presence. If you blow a call because you did not know a rule and it has a hand in determining the game.... yikes.


<i>Like anything, officiating is product of where you come from and who is teaching you.</i>

Agreed. And it's also a product of studying the rule book, the case book, and your own game experience.

<i> I fortunately have come in contact and belong to some very good associations with officials literally from all different levels. From the varsity State Final Official and
State Rules Interpreter, to the NBA Official (NFL too).
</i>

Me too (except for the NFL since I don't officiate football).

<i> I have been very fortunate to listen to many of these accomplished officials speak. And the reacurring theme, is people skills and common sense. Not what was your test score last year. Not what rule you can quote. Not how you understand all the ins and outs of 2-10, but dealing with people and being approachable. Not ignoring coaches or how many Ts you can give, but being approachable. If all you can do is think of ways to T coaches, then that is what you will be remembered for.
</i>

I have heard those same speeches. But I have also heard these same people say, "the rulebook is your best friend." Many of them have told stories about screwing up a rule and having it be the most embarrassing moment of their officiating careers. They are where they are because they mastered the rule book <b> and then </b> had the people skills and game management skills to take it even higher (and of course the ambition to want to ref at a higher level).
We have guys in our assoc who know the rulebook pretty good, but hand out T's like they are giving out Halloween candy. They don't advance so I agree that it's very important to have all the tools. But they wouldn't even be in the position to advance if they hadn't learned how to master and apply the rules first.

Peace to your bad self.

Z

I really hope you can get over this.
 

This is my opinion. I do not expect you or anyone to agree with my point of view on this or anything. Not everyone holds the same point of view on politics and I am sure they are not going to hold the same views on what it takes to be a good official.

You are right that no one gets downgraded for not having good presence, but they never get on the court if they do not. When I have a coach complain to me or any other official about a rules mistake that happens in their favor, let me know. Espcially when those rules debate with coaches come with Pro and College references that do not apply to the HS level in which most of us officiate. My football season is almost over and everytime a coach complains about the rule they talk about NFL and NCAA rules and how your call has to do with what you see on Sunday and Saturday. It almost is never about the NF rule or reference (uncatchable balls, hallo rule, chucking within 5 yards just to name a few).

If you feel that rules and only rules will get you over the top. But just like Millionares debate over how the became rich or Sales people debate over how they get the big sale, we will disagree about what it takes to become a good official. I know one thing, if you officiate in the old Chicago Public League Red West or the Chicago Catholic League, you better have some people skills to deal with that situation. Quoting rules will get you no where.

Peace

<i>You are right that no one gets downgraded for not having good presence, but they never get on the court if they do not.</i>

Sure they do. Most of us had very little presence when we first started. We were just hoping to get off the court alive. :-)

<i>If you feel that rules and only rules will get you over the top.</i>

Looks like you are holding to your own beliefs so hard that you aren't reading any of what I write. I said it's all important in the scheme of things.

<i>My football season is almost over and everytime a coach complains about the rule they talk about NFL and NCAA rules and how your call has to do with what you see on Sunday and Saturday.</i>

That's because they don't know the rules. However, you are expected to.

Z

What's so bad about a list?
 

I like Juulie's post. I, too, play and replay situations in my mind. If I have not considered how I will handle certain types of language and behavior in certain types of situations, I do not feel I will be prepared when a situation arises. I absolutely do not believe that because I have a list--vague though it may be be--of epithets and contexts in mind that I am overly likely to call a 'T' at an inappropriate time. I believe I'm being prepared. Perhaps what I have is more of a list of scenarios than it is a list of words.

Example, if I hear a 5th grader say an f-bomb, there's a 95% probability he's getting a T, even if no one else heard it other than me. It's better he learns these lessons in the 5th grade.

Upper grades, it's quite unlikely I'll T for the same muffled profanity. If that profanity is heard by anyone off the court, especially youngsters, a T is extremely likely.

(BTW--I didn't give any T's for bad language last year.)

Like I have always said.....
 

you have the right to believe in what you want to.

I was at a college meeting on Sunday. The College Assignment chairman showed a tape of a game of an 0-15 team playing a 10-5 team. The officials T'd up two players in a chippy game. The Assignment Chairman did not use the tape to be critical of the officials for a mistake with the rules, he used the tape to illustrate how to deal with the people and the game. When you move up the focus greatly shifts from rules situations, to people situations. You do not do college ball by being what officials and assignors call a "rules guy." When in this very meeting they started talking about the "interrupted dribble rule and 3 seconds" the first thing came out of one Assignment Chairman's mouth was, "you will be remembered." Trust me, it was not meant in a good way.

Have a great season in basketball and everything else.

Peace

Anyone can read, recite, and eventually understand a rules book. But you guys are correct that ability to state the rules and to do well on the Part II test is not what makes a good official.

People skills (leadership) is what separates the policemen from the exceptional official.

If I made an estimate I would suggest that a great official is 80 percent people skills and 20 percent rulebook learning. This is why so many of us have difficulty advancing - applying ourselves to the rulebook is easy. It is there for us to read and memorize. But the best we can achieve is 20 percent of the full requirement. Developing personality and leadership skills is much more difficult. There is no rulebook and in general it takes a mentor and some powerfully strong examples. Those don't automatically come when we pay our association dues. To develop the 80 percent you have to go out and find that stuff.

Paying attention in this forum is a good way to get started AND we all need a personal mentor.

Happy searching... and may we all find exemplary mentors.

Zebraman said:

There may be some actions that are automatic though.
A clipboard slammed to the ground by a coach. A coach kicking a bleacher so loud that everyone in the gym hears it.


A coach acting out like that deserves a "T". My high school coach from '68 to '71 was famous for kicking the bleachers. But the refs seemed to ignor that behavior. At the time as a teenage player I found it somewhat amusing. But now when we ex players get together and talk about the good old B-Ball days all we can talk about is what a jerk coach was and not what we learned from the game. Now I wish the refs would have been more assertive.

Posted by Downtown Tony Brown
"Anyone can read, recite, and eventually understand a rules book."

I am not sure I agree. As a teacher, I know many who could not understand the rulebook. Most officials are fairly literate and intelligent.

As for the debate about kmowing the rules or having people skills. It's obvious that both are important. We would not want young officials to think the rulebook is not important. A rookie at our meeting the other night asked:"Do I really need to buy a rulebook?" We all need a rulebook and a casebook to master the rules. Then, we will hopefully develop those skills that can make us a great official.

Jay

When you give a T........
 

your job is not done. You have to sometimes convince a coach to be seated after the T (NF rules). You have to sometimes explain why you gave a T. Basically you have to keep your cool, be the calm before the storm and move on from there. Giving a T is great, but you have to deal with the fallout. Just because you penalize a coach for throwing down a clipboard, does not mean everything is going to be fine and dandy. Because if you do not have some conflict resolution skills, this might result in an ejection and your judgement being challenged. It is eventually going to come down to what you say or not say that will make this situation not turn to crap.

Giving a T is very easy to do, but most younger officials do not have the skills to move on from there. This is the point you will be ultimately judged in my opinion.

Peace

Re: You might have
 

I agree. My point was that I am not yet in the same class as "the good officials that keep making that point". I'm just not there yet. So in the meantime, I'm using my little internal check list, to give myself some balance when I don't naturally know how to handle a situation. I didn't say that I had set my list in stone, just that it gave me a starting point.