Correctible/Not Correctible Question
 

Attending, not officiating, a GV game last night. A1 with ball is fouled (common foul) in the FC (non-shooting). Official scorer neglects to tell the reporting official (R in a 3-person crew in this case) that the foul committed on A1 was Team B's 7th foul of the half (it was, as it turns out). R, not knowing that A1 should be shooting the bonus, indicates the throw-in spot and U1 administers the throw-in. Ball comes in, A2 catches and shoots and is immediately fouled.

At this point, Coach A brings to the attention of the tableside trail official (just happened to be the R again, who had reported the previous foul) that she believes the foul which preceded the throw-in was in fact the 7th foul of the half and A1 should have been shooting 1 + 1. At this time, the other officials are setting up for the two free throws resulting from the foul on A2.

R listens to the coach, says "We'll take a look at it." He then allows the two free-throws to be administered. At the next dead ball following the free throws, R proceeds to the table where he confirms that A1 should have been shooting 1 + 1. He then tells the coach that he is sorry, the error is no longer correctible.

I think I have a pretty good handle on the correctible error rule, but my question in this instance comes down to the timing of when the R was made aware of the error. It is my understanding that when he actually went to the book(s) and compared notes, the error was no longer correctible. However, at the time he was made aware of the (potential) error, it was still within the correctible time frame.

So here's my question as a relative newbie: Could R make the correction due to the fact the potential error was brought to his attention during the time the error was still correctible? IMO, the reason it was no longer correctible was due to the fact he said "We'll take a look at it" and then allowed (inadvertently) the correctible time period to lapse. I'm not criticizing here, and this play had no bearing on the outcome of the game. I'm just wondering in case I find myself in a similar sitch down the road.

Thanks.

I'll vote "no." The R should have looked when the coach asked, and the coach should have "insisted" on it. Once the R didn't, though, it's too late.

If it happens to you, check on the problem as soon as you think there might be one. It can't get better to wait.

Nope....

Lets say the officials get together three minutes after the coach informs the official (during the correctable timeframe) and realize they screwed up.

See where that is going ? The rule setting the timeframe in which the error can be corrected is clear. It prevents situations such as these.

The table messed up, then the official messed up when it was brought to his attention. As Bob said, if the subject is brought up by a coach, addresss it immediately. Correct it if you can, move on if you cannot.

Ahh, the classic situation of Coach A purposely waiting to point out the error so they could get 2 opportunities to score.

Hmmmm sounds like coach shouldve followed CE procedures & got a t/o.

Was there 7 team fouls on the board? You'd think 1 of the 3 officials would check the clock following a whistle...
Personally, I like the crew to be aware at 6.

CE time frames & rules have always confused me, so I choose not to have them in my games (lol) but lets say it got fixed within the limit, would we shoot the 1 & 1 w/the lane cleared then administer the FTs for the shooting foul w/players lined up?

Yep. I'm not justifying it, but it almost seems as if the R purposefully waited.

Unfortunately, yes.

Funny, I was thinking the same thing. Maybe he thought some fishy was going on.

Let's not blame the coach for this one. This one is squarely on the table (BOTH scorer's have a book) and the officials. The coach MAY have been trying to get away with something, but it COULD NOT happen without mistakes being made by the others.

No, the scoreboard actually jumped from 6 fouls listed to 8. This also drew attention to the error, although after the fact. What might have drawn attention was the fact the scoreboard stayed on "6" for two fouls in a row, but the two fouls occurred within probably 30 seconds (real time, not clock time) of each other and it was bang-bang.

I don't think anything was fishy, btw. From watching it play out, and this is just my opinion, the R was trying to calculate in his head if the error was still correctible because I doubt it's something he deals with every day. While he was doing that, the ball became live. I thought he made a legit effort to look at correcting it, but then realized the correctible time period had lapsed. That was the reason I asked, so I don't make a similar mistake in the future. It's also why I'm not criticizing, these guys are working varsity games and I'm not. They've been at it alot longer and maybe I missed something.

I'm not blaming the coach at all. I ALWAYS blame the table AND/OR officials for correctable errors. But there are those who will say its Coach B's fault (defensive coach) for not insisting that Team A should be shooting free throws.

I still say...

Hmmm...sounds like the Coach did exactly what a Coach should do and brought the discrepancy to the attention of the nearest official. From that point on, it's all on the official for not taking care of business.

I guess they can do it that way, but the good coaches know:

10-5 ART. 1

The head coach shall remain seated on the team bench, except:

c. The head coach may stand and/or leave the coaching box to confer with personnel at the scorer's table to request a time-out as in 5-8-4.


5-8 ART. 4

Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official:

Responds to the scorer's signal to grant a coach's request that a correctable error, as in 2-10, or a timing, scoring or alternating-possession mistake be prevented or rectified. The appeal to the official shall be presented at the scorer's table where a coach of each team may be present.

But whatever, IJS :rolleyes:

In the case where a coach calls a timeout to correct a correctable error and then we as officials correct it we don't charge the coach a timeout. Is that correct or have I been watching too many NFL games with the challenge flag?

Correct

You can roll your eyes all you want to, but the fact remains that the procedures you pasted from the rule book are designed for a time when the ball is live and in play. That is when the coach may rise and go to the table and at the next dead ball the timer will sound the horn.

In the OP, the ball was not live, the Coach spoke to the official, and the official did not take care of business. He should have held up the free throws, brought both coaches together and handled the CE situation. Trying to pass this off as the Coach not handling it right is quite pathetic.

True... not trying to blame the coach, but when the official said he'd take a look at it, I would've called a t/o before the FTs were shot.
Coach knew the CE rule but probably didnt know the time frames.

The blame goes to the table & officials, IMO the coach didnt handle it correctly either.

Bottom line is, we as officials have got to manage that clock & be cognizant of the score, time, fouls, etc.

Its not that hard to do:
1. whistle
2. sneak a peak
3. handle problems before the ball becomes live

No CEs.

Agreed.

I assign the blame as:

Table 30%
Officials 65%
Coach 5%

Agreed also...sounds like we are saying the exact same thing.

Yes sirrrrr!

That is correct. Have a look at 5-11-3, Exception b.

This is exactly why in my games I will tell whoever reports the 6'th foul "Bonus on the next _______." When the 7'th foul is indicated I then put my two forefingers next to each other and spread them apart before recording the foul.In a particularly intense game I may say "One and One ________."This one is about 95% table and 5% officials!

No wonder those SoCal officials arrive so quickly :D

Seriously though, that is great stuff... I cherish the games when I have a competent table crew to assist us!

It's why I pay attention to the scoreboard every time we report a foul. There are many occasions where I have had the timer correct the foul count on the scoreboard. And I hate it when the timer posts the team foul on the scoreboard before we report the foul.

I Hate When That Happens, Too ...
 

I also hate it when the public address announcer states, "Third foul on twenty-one. Team's fifth.", before I've finished reporting to the table.

I had an adult scoreboard operator last week in a boys varsity game. I reported a foul to the table knowing that we were probably going to reach the team's tenth foul. After reporting the foul, I asked the table, "Are we in the double bonus?". Operator replied, sarcastically, "Look at the scoreboard, the double bonus light is on." I shouldn't have, but I let it go.

A few minutes later, my partner reported a foul to the table, after which there was no further action from the table. After moving back to his trail position for the free throws, players from the team that fouled moved toward their bench area to meet with their coach. I ask my partner, "Did someone request a timeout?" He answers in the negative. We both move to the table area to figure out what's going on and discover that a player fouled out. "Why didn't you tell us?", I ask the table. Operator replies, "Look at the scoreboard, it's his fifth foul". So I read her the riot act, "You have to let us know when we're in the bonus, or the double bonus, or when someone fouls out".

After the game, in the locker room, my partner tells me that I was too hard on the operator. I told him that she made me look foolish, and then she made him look foolish, and I wasn't going to let it happen again, to us, or to any of our colleagues that show up that site. He replied that he didn't now about the first screwup, and that was my fault. I should have taken care of business when I was supposed to take care of business. Lesson learned. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Stil preferred to, "Phantom foul call on twenty-one. It's Derek's third foul, team's fifth. What a crappy call."

Last night's ugly game featured no team foul counts on the scoreboard. Fewer and fewer gyms like that. I kinda miss the foul towers from yesteryear. Of course, there was no double bonus after 10 fouls in those days, so I guess the towers became obsolete.

I love it...that's how I remember who the foul was on! ;)

It's Not Always The Same ...
 

Assuming that the announcer has the foul on the same player as you.

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Foul tower?

Principle Of Verticality ???
 

I always thought of that as more of an askew tower. :D

In those situations where the timer is posting the foul before reporting, either they're watching the game very closely or they're watching the officials very closely. After being a timer after so long (depending on experience & professionalism) a person can learn how to read who the foul was on based of off the action on the court.

I am getting to where I just start to hit either the H Player Foul or V Player Foul button as the official comes into the FRA. However I make sure that I am posting the correct player by looking closely at the reporting official & if still not sure verifying with the scorer who the foul was on.

BillyMac, in your situation, it sounds as if the table crew didn't fully understand their duties & responsibilities.

Did you discuss with your partner that the table crew was not doing their job properly & think about discussing it with the school's AD that the table needs to know their duties & responsibilities better?

Most times when I'm timer, I am the one notifying the officials of bonus, double bonus, or fifth foul cause of who is working as scorer. Technically the scorer is supposed to notify the officials, NOT the timer. Also the scorer is to take care of the AP NOT the timer, yet I am doing both.

At least the personnel doing Varsity scorer do things right concerning foul/bonus notifications & AP here.

I prefer that you wait. I take a peak at the scoreboard before I report. If I see 6 I know my foul will make it 7. If you put 6 up there before I take my peak I'm going to think we should be shooting 1-and-1. It causes an unnecessary delay to get it straightened out. My personal advise is that you show some patience and wait before you post the data on scoreboard.

To change the subject slightly, this is a pet peeve of mine. Was it necessary for both of you (2-man crew, correct?) to go to the table? One official should be staying back to observe the court and players. When the entire crew is at the table they tend to all/both focus on the table and lose sight of the players and court.

BTW, the operator earned your "riot act". Don't feel bad about that. But yes, you should have addressed her attitude the first time she stepped over the line.

BNR, what I mean is I hit the corresponding button to put up player number, not team foul. Depending on whether or not I put up the individual player fouls depends on the game.

When doing player fouls as well as team fouls, I always input the player foul info on the board before the team foul.

I don't input any foul info until I receive the info from the reporting official.

Well then you're going to love this.... The situation in my OP came about, I learned after the game, because the official scorer was reportedly texting on and off during the whole game. While keeping the official book. Apparently she was busy texting at the inconvenient time of the aforementioned seventh foul. I left this out of the OP because I did not actually witness this myself, but true or not it certainly raises a good point about attentiveness at the table.

Probably why a lot of schools are using adults as official scorers.They know that the adult will pay attention for the whole game and use their phones only when appropriate-AT HALFTIME!