What We've Got Here Is Failure To Communicate. (Cool Hand Luke) ...
 

We've had a few threads recently about correctable errors, noncorrectable errors, and mistakes, such as coaches requesting and beng granted an excess timeout that later turns out not to be excessive. And players who have been disqualified for five fouls, and it's later discovered that they really didn't have five fouls. All ugly situations. Well, here's another one that happened to a buddy in a recent junior varsity game.

Lead official calls an intentional foul on B1 who fouled A1 in the act of shooting. Ball does not go in. Lead properly signals the intentional foul at the spot of the foul, and reports it as such to the table.

Old trail does not see the intentional foul signal, and, as new lead, lines up players to rebound A1's two shots. New trail does not realize that there is a problem. A1's two shots are successful. Team B takes the last successful free throw out of bounds and successfully makes a throwin to a Team B player. At the next whistle, Team A coach asks the officials why they didn't get the ball back at the site of the intentional foul?

Any way to correct this? What if A1 missed the second shot, any way to correct? What if A1 wasn't in the act of shooting a missed the first half of a one and one, anyway to corect?

Maybe let 10.1.8 Comment guide you on this one?

The error here is failing to award the throwin to the proper team. Definitely no way to correct this once the throwin has been completed.

Once B's throwin pass is legally touched in bounds, it can no longer be corrected.

If one of the two FTs had been shot, you can correct by pulling everyone off the lane.
If he misses the 2nd and B earns the rebound, I think it's too late to correct, then, too.

Now, if the P had given a 1 and 1, and the first was missed with B getting the rebound, that gets tricky. Failure to give the FT is a correctable error, but the throwin is not. However, I'd say give him his FT with the lane cleared and give A the throwin based on 2.10.1A.

10.1.8 is about a player from team A making a throwin following a goal by his own team. It's not relevant to BillyMac's play (unless I'm seriously misreading the OP).

According to a previous post by Camron Rust "Team B threw in a dead ball. The ball would have only become live had team A taken it OOB for the throwin."

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...tml#post711153

Not here. By allowing the players to line up, the ball becomes live once it's at B's disposal. Otherwise the same argument could be made to correct a mistaken AP throwin (given to A rather than B) after the fact.

To extend the scenario here: New lead announces 1 and 1 and A misses the first attempt. A rebounds but turns it over to B. At this point new trail realizes the error and stops play.

We can correct the missed free throw, but will resume from the point of interruption (B's throw in) since there was a change of possession. Right?

You are right, 7.5.2 A Throw in by wrong team by mistake.

That's how I read it, yes.

correctable errors
2.10.1 situation a

Or 6.4.1D. My book doesn't have 7.5.2A (odd).

6.4.1D addresses Arrow Mistake, 7.5.2A is the one

7.5.2A isn't in my case book, but I assume it uses the same logic as 6.4.1D, the mistake can be corrected up until the throwin is completed.

Looks like they took it out this year? That is kind of weird.

Avoidable....
 

Situations such as intentional or technical fouls should be covered in our pregames. If I have one of these situations come up, I meet with one of my partners and explain what was called, how the free throws will be handled (who the shooter on the IF is, any eligible player on the TF), and how/where the following throw-in will be administered. Also, I will meet with one of my partners (if my other partner didn't beat me there) and get this information from him/her if I did not make the call. It only takes a few seconds on the court and keeps us out of many situations that only lead to trouble. Just a little something I picked up at camp one summer.

+1

And I'll add that on a "T" to make sure the FT's will be taken at the correct basket....

+++1

These are things that we can control......good advice

Wrap It Up ???
 

Regarding this play, and all the various permutations, would it be safe to say the if the free throw shooter did not get two shots then this could be corrected under the time limits of the corectable error rule? Would it be also safe to say that the throwin error could only be corrected up to, but not including, the point at which the erroneous throwin was completed?

THROW-IN BY WRONG TEAM BY MISTAKE
7.5.2 SITUATION B: Team A is awarded a throw-in near the division line. The administering official by mistake, puts the ball at B1's disposal. B1 completes the throw-in and Team B subsequently scores a goal. RULING: No correction can be made for the mistake by the official after the throw-in ends.

I don't believe so. The throw-in error can also be corrected at the same time as the free throw provided there hasn't been a change in possession after the game continued without the merited free throw.

Still Searching For A Simple Answer ???
 

So, A1 misses the second shot of the erroneous one and one. Team B rebounds the missed shot. When is it too late to give the ball back to Team A because the foul was intentional?

That's a good question we haven't covered in this thread yet. Since A1 shot two free throws, this isn't an issue of not awarding merited free throws but of failing to award a throw-in which is not correctable. I would say you have a period of a second or two to realize the ball should be dead beyond which you have committed an uncorrectable error. From a technical point of view, when the clock starts is most likely the point of no return.

A1 got both of his free throws, once B has a live ball on the court, I'd say it's too late based on the precedent of the case plays already mentioned.

I've been doing that for years. But what did camp tell you to do if for some reason the crew screws up and ends up in the situation that the OP is in?

7.5.2.a
 

I don't have 7.5.2.A in my case book, can someone quote this?

THROW-IN BY WRONG TEAM BY MISTAKE
7.5.2 SITUATION A: Team A is awarded a throw-in near the division line. The administering official by mistake, puts the ball at B1’s disposal. B1 completes the throw-in and Team B subsequently scores a goal. RULING: No correction can be made for the mistake by the official after the throw-in ends.

Funny that it's missing from this year's case book. It's directly related to an editorial change, and they didn't "re-number" the remaining 7.5.2 cases. Seems it was just abducted.

Well, lo and behold. I liked the above so much I incorporated it in my pregame last night and sure enough, first quarter shot goes up and lead calls a double foul underneath. the three of us come together for maybe 3 seconds as he tells us what he has and we're going with the AP. Very smooth.

What to do after it has been discovered that the penalty for the IPF was not correctly assessed has been pretty well discussed in this thread. I want to discuss how to prevent this mistake in the first place.

I know in Connecticut that two-man officiating crews are still used. That said, the protocol for handling IF's, FF's, and TF's should pre-gamed. These three types of fouls are the ones that no one wants to have occur in their games but they do happen and we must be ready to handle them, no matter how much we dislike having to deal with them.

The most important thing when an IF, FF, and TF is called is communication among the members of the officiating crew.

The first thing that the calling official must do before going to the Table to report the foul is to meet at the center circle with the other members of the officiating crew and tell them what he has. At this point the crew should determine: (1) if and how many free throws are to be awarded, (2) who (player or team) is going to shoot free throws, (3) at which basket any free throws will be attempted, (4) whether or not the lane spaces will be occupied, and (5) how the ball will be put back into play. An extra 30 seconds of communication goes a long way in preventing ugly situations.

MTD, Sr.