?? back court violation

[SNIPERBBB]

Unless the officials judge that the tip was controlled, then it would not be a violation as there was no team control.

[BillyMac]

During a throwin, even under a team’s own basket, if the throwin is deflected, tipped, or batted by an offensive player in the frontcourt to an offensive player in the backcourt; or after a missed field goal attempt or a missed foul shot attempt, if the ball is deflected, tipped, or batted by an offensive player in the frontcourt to an offensive player in the backcourt; these are not a backcourt violations. In both cases team control, a player holding or dribbling the ball, has not yet been established.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

Unless the officials judge that the tip was controlled, then it would not be a violation as there was no team control.

Is a "controlled" tip included in the events than begin team control?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

Unless the officials judge that the tip was controlled, then it would not be a violation as there was no team control.

Your verbiage is too confusing imo. You can control a tip without establishing player and thus team control. You can control a tip from one end of the court to the other aamof without establishing player control.

[SNIPERBBB]

Controlled in this case would mean that it was the start of a dribble. This came up a couple years ago in either the case book or one of the pre-season NFHS fliers that comes with the books, might of been the OHSAA flier. Caused a big debate in our association and general consensus was that if you determine a tip or a player batting the ball back in bounds, your asking for whatever comes next.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

Controlled in this case would mean that it was the start of a dribble. This came up a couple years ago in either the case book or one of the pre-season NFHS fliers that comes with the books, might of been the OHSAA flier. Caused a big debate in our association and general consensus was that if you determine a tip or a player batting the ball back in bounds, your asking for whatever comes next.

Are you saying that if you consider these to be "control," then you're asking for trouble? Or that if you consider these not to be control, you're asking for trouble? It's not clear.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

Controlled in this case would mean that it was the start of a dribble. This came up a couple years ago in either the case book or one of the pre-season NFHS fliers that comes with the books, might of been the OHSAA flier. Caused a big debate in our association and general consensus was that if you determine a tip or a player batting the ball back in bounds, your asking for whatever comes next.

I'm with Snaqs...confused.

By rule there's no player control on either a batt or a tipp.

Are you thinking of case book play 7.1.1SitD? In that one, the player caught the ball; he didn't batt or tip it back in-bounds.

And btw, while you're in the case book, 4.12.6(b) is the reference for answering bbcowboy's original question. Touched, tipped, batted...same, same....none establish player control.

[BillyMac]

When does team control begin?

4-12-2-A: A team is in control of the ball: When a player of the team is in control.

OK. When does a player gain control?

4-12-1: A player is in control of the ball when he is holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds.

OK. When does a player start a dribble?

4-15-1: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times.

Questions? Do you have to have control first to start a dribble with a bat? Or does the bat to start a dribble establish control? Someone passes him the ball and instead of catching it, he bats it to the floor? Can you bat a ball into the air to start a dribble? How does one distinguish a bat into the air that is a dribble, versus a bat into the air that's a shot, versus a bat into the air that's a pass, like maybe a pass into the backcourt? Does one have to read minds to determine intent?

Anybody got an aspirin?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

4-15-1: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times.

Questions? Do you have to have control first to start a dribble with a bat? Or does the bat to start a dribble establish control? Someone passes him the ball and instead of catching it, he bats it to the floor? Can you bat a ball into the air to start a dribble? How does one distinguish a bat into the air that is a dribble, versus a bat into the air that's a shot, versus a bat into the air that's a pass, like maybe a pass into the backcourt? Does one have to read minds to determine intent?

Hey guys? These were not rhetorical questions. Is this microphone working?

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Hey guys? These were not rhetorical questions. Is this microphone working?

You're not normally judging intent, but outcomes. Often you cannot determine if it is a dribble until you see what happens next. If he bats the ball to the floor, then continues dribbling...it was the start of a dribble. If he bats it to the floor, then grabs it off the bounce...it was not the start of a dribble. If he bats the ball into the air, lets it hit the ground, then continues dribbling...it was the start of a dribble. etc.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Does one have to read minds to determine intent?

No, but sometimes you do have to officiate.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

No, but sometimes you do have to officiate.

Is that the recommended cure for that dreaded disease "paralysis through analysis"?