Coach was an official
 

Has this Tuesday night: The V C-Squad coach stated that before he became a coach he was an official for 10 years.

During the game, his team only had 5 fouls compared to the home team having 15 fouls.

Which is better: a coach that was an official or an official that was a coach?

The answer depends solely on the individual.

nt

Which is worse, a timer without a taser or a question which has no answer?

Maybe we need a poll.

He stated it to basically everyone within earshot (officials, H coach, table, both teams) before the C-Squad game.

He actually kept everyone in check as well when on the bench for the Varsity game as well.

The team we were playing against are basically the cross-town rivals & that was the most well behaved I've seen them. Not many fouls at all were called against them.

Typically, a coach who makes his officiating history known is really just informing us he's going to be a problem. I cringe every time I hear a coach say it.

We have a varsity official in our association who happens to coach a girls C-squad team, but if you didn't already know him, you'd never know he is an official when working his games.

Coaching and officiating require different skillsets.

Officiating involves knowledge of rules and mechanics, judgment, game management, consistency, and physical fitness.

Coaching involves instruction, motivation, some rules knowledge (although I hardly expect coaches to know every single rule and caseplay), and the patience to deal with the attitudes of various players (and their parents).

A great coach might (or might not) be a great official. A great official might (or might not) be a great coach.

My typical thought when a coach tells me he/she "used to be an official" is "Well, there's obviously a reason you aren't one anymore."

He was very well behaved throughout the game. He'd just make slight comments about missed calls & he was actually kinda mentoring.

Here's the thing. I do not want a coach mentoring me during the game. Period. He's not my coach, he's not my mentor. Making slight comments and trying to mentor me is going to cost him the coaching box if he doesn't stop when I tell him to do so.

And for him to "mentor" in a public way after making comments to everyone who can hear him that he was an official for 10 years is not reasonable behavior.

The coach I mentioned previously doesn't make "slight comments about missed calls," either. He'll ask the occasional question; but I've never seen him so much as flinch at the answer.

Now that's funny! ROFLMAO

Just because you were an official for 10 years does not mean that you were a very good official. Just because you were a coach before you became an official does not mean you were a good coach. Being an official is about knowing rules and applying them in a very specific manner and being professional. Coaching is about Xs and Os and knowing how to draw them up and think of the fly. I am sure those skills would help, but that does not mean you are very good at what you came from. I would only really have respect for a coach if they did similar things or achieved more than I did as an official. If they had not done that, I would not put much stock in their experience.

Peace

IOW He'd ask why the call was missed & make suggestions as to positioning, so the call won't be missed next time or comment to his team about the missed call & what needs to be done differently to make sure that call doesn't happen.

For crowd numbers we only had about 30 people watching in the stands.

Snaq, I do see where you're coming from concerning the conduct though.

No. Final answer. SNG

Interesting
 

Had a football coach do that with this year - including all of the BS about respecting, how hard it is etc... was the biggest pain in the a__ we had all season - to the point of almost being out of control!:rolleyes:

Not to me he wouldn't. Not acceptable. Nor would I allow him to do it to a rookie partner.

He'd need to tread lightly. What I hear there is a coach trying to talk to the refs through his players. I will not be coached while I'm on the court. He's working the officials, plain and simple.

The number of fans isn't relevant. He's condescending to the officials, and that's not appropriate.

Just because these officials accepted it doesn't mean anything either.

Which is worse? A timer with a rule book? Or a coach who was never an official?

Must of been really thick-skinned.

Like I stated in another thread, the crew for the game was 2-person, so one of the officials also worked the V 3-person crew, as only 4 officials showed up for 3 games.

Before V game started he alerted his partners about the C-Squad coach & did not hear any of the comments like I did during the C-Squad game.

Maybe we need a pole - with a hot mom dancer on it. :)

I just had the rule book with me as a reference or in case had a problem with a fan or coach.

Same thing with the printouts I have with me.

Just like in the movie BaseKETball.

what about an official who used to play and coach?!??!

oh oh and scorekeep too

There is no way a coach is going to be making suggestions to me as to positioning. If the coach wants to be an evaluator/mentor, then he needs to join the local association and do just that. I'm sure the coach doesn't want me to be giving him suggestions as to coaching strategies, so I don't want him to try the same with me and officiating.

A little bit different spin on this topic...I drove about 2 hours to a small town last night to watch my HS son play. When I get there, I am the only parent/fan from our school who made the drive - long drive, raining like crazy, etc., etc. So our scorekeeper didn't show up. Coach asks me if I will do the book for him and I agree and move over to the table. The 3 officials walk in and I know two of them from camps where I have been a clinician.

In the second quarter, we have a correctable error - my sons' team should have shot bonus on 7th foul, both the home book and I signaled one-and-one with our hands and then started yelling at them - they put the ball in play, and then have to hit whistles because the horn is blowing and we are yelling...anyway, they get together and talk for a bit, and then walk over to the table and ask me what they are supposed to do! :eek:

I first tell them they shouldn't be asking me, but they say they really don't know what to do and need my help...so I tell them it's not too late to correct and they should line them up and shoot the bonus and play on from there. So they start to do that and home coach gets really agitated and wants to know why they are listening to some scorekeeper...

All ends up fine, but sometimes it pays to have an extra official around.

All fixed nice and shiny like.

ROFL...thanks.

Love the Serenity reference!

The five words I hate to hear before every game, in any sport...."I am an official, too." I cringe at the sound of them.
Facts: Just because you were a good player does not mean you will be a good referee. Just because you were a good coach does not mean you will be a good referee. Just because you have a license and a striped shirt does not man you will be a good referee.

The most accurate answer thus far, from my perspective. As my board name suggests, I have done both.

I find that many referees make bad coaches as they frequently know the rules, but not the Xs and Os. They tend to focus more on US in those cases because they know reffing better than the Xs and Os. But, there are exceptions that know the the Xs and Os very well. In those cases, they don't have much time for US.

I think that coaches tend to make good referees because they can relate to the challenges the coaches face. At the same time, sometimes, coaches-turned-referees tend to worry too much about the type of offense or defense a team is running (and why) and fail to focus on off-the-ball responsibilities (most coaches "ball watch" as coaches and many tend to continue that habit when starting to referee).

Bottom line is, JR is right. It really just depends on the individual -- and, to some extent their experience level in each.

MARK - I'll bring the $$$!!

As someone who resembles this remark, I think I can speak on it with some real life experience.
For starters, I don't tell the officials that I AM an official. Some/most of them know me, and if they don't, I am not sure how much it matters. Of course, if there is a 'bad' call my wife is in the annoying habit of informing the unknowning officials that I am one. (I ask her to stop, but you can't tell women ANYTHING!)
IMO, most coaches who also officiate forget that once they are on the bench they are no longer an unbiased observer. I realize that I have a bias on the bench and act accordingly. IF there is a rules issue or something, I will inform the Head Coach. I will give my wife "language of art" to use if she is talking to officials to be 'heard'. And if she asks my opinion on a call I will give it to her. (Usually, I say it was a good call) What I don't do is yell at officials, mentor them or anything. I will make jokes with them and even compliment calls that may have gone against us if I am friends with them. (ie. How can you expect us to win if you keep making good calls like that)
Most official/coaches I run into during the summer. I don't know if it is the weather or what, but they are the ones who give the most grief. I actually tossed a coach who I later found out was a big wig D1 men's official during an AAU Tournament. I had another one tell me it is a good thing my supervisor isn't here to watch this game b/c I would not be working, to which I responded it is a good thing (Insert Name of Observer) isn't here to see how you act as a coach! didn't hear much from them after that.
The bottom line IMO, is that these people feel that since they theoretically have a concept of the rules, their criticism should count more then a "regular" coach. But again, once you sit on the bench you lose your unbias view of the contest.

I don't know, but I have seen several people that try to do both at the same time...no matter what shirt they are wearing!

Good Coaches Coach...Bad Coaches Referee.

Those who can [referee] do. Those who can't, coach.

That would be me. I was working the book and clock at military intramural and base-level games when I was a teen-ager. Sometimes both at the same time. I don't think chseagle would like me giving him pointers while I was officiating a game.

Dude (Looks Like A Lady) ...
 

I started out as a middle school coach. I was getting sick of questioning officials and not really knowing the rules, which, you could imagine, led to many technical fouls, so I took a new officials class. I passed the test and was invited to join the board. I figured, why not? Back then, teachers, my original profession, weren't getting paid very much. My young family could use the extra cash. I did both for about twenty-five years until the "helicopter parents" finally got to me. No more coaching. I'll never look back.

So when are we getting together to do a game? I love a challenge.

As Jurassic said, it depends on the individual.

A few years ago we had a game with a coach that was a former official (and not a very good one in the opinion of many). During the game he was periodically sniping about calls and finally late Q2 my partner warned him (stop sign & "that's enough coach").

Early Q3 as I'm transitioning along the sideline table side, he yells at me "If you don't start calling what I'm telling you I'm going to call XXXX(our assignor) personally. I simply stopped, blew my whistle and signaled the "T", asked if he would like the phone number, then stepped out to report the foul. Towards the end of Q3, my partner hit him with his 2nd "T" when he came off the bench and took a step onto the court screaming about something. I think he got tossed 3 or 4 times that season.....

I coached Middle School girl's basketball for a couple of years. I was a decent coach but not great - had a winning season each year but a lot fo that had to do with the lack of playing good teams . I started officiating after that and found out that while I understood basketball as far as setting plays, coaching, etc., I had LOTS to learn as an official. I now think I am a much better official than I ever was a coach and certainly enjoy it MUCH better.

As far as a coach announcing to me that he used to be an official, I simply tell him that tonight you are coaching and I am officiating. I will let you do your job without me commenting and I would appreciate you giving me the same courtesy.

Robby

I became a basketball offical because of my H.S. basketball coach.

For those of you who do not know, I graduated from H.S. in 1969. The H.S. I attended was a dominant boys' basketball power in the area from the early 1950's until the early 1970's. The reason was the school's boys basketball head coach (he was also the boys' and girls' golf coach) for the entire time. He and his family were our next door neighbors and his two sons and two daughters and my sister and I grew up together and were and still are best of friends. The three of us boys played basketball and golf and the three girls played golf.

One of the things that few people knew was that during that entire time he was an OhioHSAA registered basketball official from the late 1940's until retired from coaching. In fact he was a charter member (1948) of the Trumbull County Basketball Officials Association in Warren, Ohio, and I have been a member of that association since 1971. He stopped officiating when he started coaching but always attended every TCBOA meeting even though he was coaching.

Did he get any TF's? Yes, he did from time to time. But, one could say that goes with the territory. But all of the TF's I can remember him getting were from kicking the bleacher bench with the heel of his shoe, when he thought an official did not get a call right. I can't remember him getting a TF for yelling at an official. He required players were expected to act as gentlemen on the court at all times. A player would get yanked from the game if he looked at an official the wrong way. If a player received a TF, he could expect to sit for at least a full quarter. And when I played the OhioHSAA did not have the current penalties for ejections that it now has, but if a player was ejected he didn't play the next game. He ran a tight ship.

He told us that the best officials were assigned to our games by the league and he would not tolerate disrespectful unsportsmanlike conduct toward officials and opponents. He also told us that an official never lost or one a game for a team because he never saw an official miss a layup or a free throw or a jump shot for that matter, nor commit a foul or a violation, nor throw the ball away.

When asked why he was a basketball official, his answer was: "If you do not know the rules of the game, then how can you teach the game or play the game."

That statement has always rung true because at least twice a season, a full hour of practice would be devoted to guarding and screening (what everybody refers to block/charge). This practice was a combined practice for the FR, JV, and VAR teams. If one were observing the practice from the stands, one would have thought that he was watching a basketball officials camp teach how to officiate block/charge. Every part of the guarding and screening rules were taught. So I can honestly say that the guarding and screening rules have not changed in over 45 years.

When I graduated from H.S. many thought that I would be the most likely of all his players to become a coach, but I chose a career in engineering and became a basketball official instead.

MTD, Sr.

Nice story MTD.

My game on Tuesday that had no bonus FTs the whole game, had the V coach who was a former official. His players were very respectful. Never heard anything from him other than time out requests. The H coach, who I had in a game last year, was also very respectful. Last year, I had teed up two of his players in the first half. He asked the cause, and said he would take care of things. The second half, he seemed to have a different team out there. They played basketball, staged a comeback and won the game.

btw My partner told me about the V coach being a former official. He never mentioned it.

^^^MTD

Was Ernie Shavers around when you grew up?

OK - now it's official. I'm older than you (probably). I graduated from college in 1969, although I was only 20. I graduated HS in '65 (1965, not 1865) when I was 16. I was the youngest in a graduating class of 712. I started HS when I was 12.

BTW, MTD - who are the most notable graduates (in the world of sport) from your HS (any year). Mine would be Jerry Colangelo and Jim Bouton.

In my area, we have a men's D-1 official who is considered an assistant coach on one of the HS teams because his son is on the team. I've been officiating this team for two years now and I just now found out who he actually was. He's never said a word to the officials unless it's something good about how they handled a particular situation on the court. I've heard that he's good about putting an idea into the coach's head about what to ask the officials about during a game though... :cool:

If I had coached (which was a plan a few years back), my players would have been instructed towards being respectful towards the officials. I grew up with my dad being a football ref. My first season competing in any sport, I was taught to not disrespect the refs. Since I didn't go on to become a coach, I naturally went to ref'ing. I absolutely love the game of basketball and, as stated above, grew up with a ref as a dad.

Now, I'll echo those saying this, it all depends on that one individual. They can be good at both, one or the other, or neither. My association has a football coach, a school's AD, a volleyball coach (our president), a track coach, and several teachers that officiate. All are respected and experienced in officiating.

What I have found is that if the coach is respectful, most, if not all of the players are respectful. If the coach is a whiner, the players for the most part are whiners. If the coach is a belligerent, then some of the players are as well. And some are still at the whiny stage.

My game tonight features a coach in the middle category. I have never seen the other coach. I will tell you that the coach never is quoted in the paper whining about calls. His players played hard. His players didn't execute, but would improve in those areas with time. His players did not convert free throws. The other team made some plays.

Yes. He played grew up in Leavittsburg Township near Warren, Ohio. He played football for Leavittsburg H.S., graduating from there in 1963, I think. Leavittsburg H.S. (now LaBrae H.S., Leavttsburg Local School Dist. and Braceville (Braceville H.S.) Local School Dist. merged after I graduated from H.S.) and now LaBrea H.S. are still in the same league my H.S. is in.

I met him just once at the annual Youngstown Italian-American Banquet in 1978. When he made a fist, it was like having a brick on the end of his arm. There was a reason that Ali and Foreman said he was the hardest hitting heavyweight they had ever fought and it was those bricks on the end of his arms. LOL

MTD, Sr.

Mark:

None.

MTD, Sr.