Timeout/Layup = technical foul

BillyMac

BillyMac wrote
NFHS 2-7-4: The officials shall conduct the game in accordance with the rules.

dsqrddgd909 wrote
How else would we do it?

NFHS 2-7-4 is also known as the "Tim Donaghy Rule".

Jurassic Referee

Nevadaref wrote
There was a POE or comment on this a few years ago when the editorial change was made in the language of this rule. I recall the NFHS making the point to not allow such behavior after the whistle.

My vote is WHACK.

Then what's your position on this one, Nevada?

NFHS rule 5-12-5 states that players shall remain standing within the confines of the TO area during a 30-second TO. What do you do if the players sit down? WHACK? Note that the NFHS also made a point not to allow this particular behavior also.

chseagle

What about 10-3-5b?

"ART. 5 Delay the game by acts such as: . . .
a. Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in
play.
b. Failing when in possession, to immediately pass the ball to the nearer official when a whistle blows.
c. The free thrower fails to be in the free-throw semicircle when the official is ready to administer the free throw unless the resumption-of-play procedure is in effect following a time-out or intermission.
d. Repeated violations of the throw-in, as in 9-2-10."

MelbRef wrote
My partner shared a game-end snafu situation with me last night. His partners at his game all had a different opinion on how best to handle it. Thought I would share...

5 seconds left in game, Team A up by three with the ball, Team B fouls to stop the clock (no bonus). Team B coach calls timeout.

Here's where it gets interesting:

Team A player (guy who got fouled) casually dribbles to basket and takes a layup on the way to the bench for timeout.

R calls technical foul.

Then...Team B makes one of two technical free throws, gets the throw-in at halfcourt , and makes a game winning 3-point shot to win the game.

Team A coach goes ape, throws clipboard, whole 9 yards.

Would you call a technical for the layup?

Adam

Jurassic Referee wrote
Then what's your position on this one, Nevada?

NFHS rule 5-12-5 states that players shall remain standing within the confines of the TO area during a 30-second TO. What do you do if the players sit down? WHACK? Note that the NFHS also made a point not to allow this particular behavior also.

I think in both cases (the TO and the "practicing"), a T could reasonably be issued if the official directs the team/player to comply and they refuse. The fact that there's no specific penalty in the rules doesn't mean it can't be considered unsporting to disregard the official's instructions at this point.

Adam

chseagle wrote
What about 10-3-5b?

"ART. 5 Delay the game by acts such as: . . .
a. Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in
play.
b. Failing when in possession, to immediately pass the ball to the nearer official when a whistle blows.
c. The free thrower fails to be in the free-throw semicircle when the official is ready to administer the free throw unless the resumption-of-play procedure is in effect following a time-out or intermission.
d. Repeated violations of the throw-in, as in 9-2-10."

Please read the entire thread. This rule is already on the discussion table.

chseagle

I did read the entire thread, BillyMac did cite it but did not give a full reference, just somehow I did not see it initially 🙁, especially since it falls under Player Technical & the penalty for anything under 10-3 is 2 FTs & ball at division line for throw-in.

In the OP, the team A player casually decides to go for a layup, after the whistle was blown, while heading to bench for the TO.

Hence why I was asking about 10-5-3b since the player failed to immediately give the ball to the nearest official after the whistle was blown.

Snaqwells wrote
Please read the entire thread. This rule is already on the discussion table.

Adam

chseagle wrote
I did read the entire thread, I did not see any mention of 10-5-3b, especially since it falls under Player Technical & the penalty for anything under 10-3 is 2 FTs & ball at division line for throw-in.

Really? Try again, you can start with Post #9, where BillyMac says this:

BillyMac wrote
This may be a stretch:

NFHS 10-3-5: A player shall not: Delay the game by acts such as:
Failing when in possession, to immediately pass the ball to the nearer
official when a whistle blows.

Jurassic Referee wrote
And it's a stretch because imo if the rulesmakers wanted to to identify this as a specific delay of game problem, they would have done so by either including it as one of the DOG warnings or adressed it directly as they did on a play like a defender touching the ball OOB on a throw-in while the thrower is holding it.

Scrapper1 wrote
More to the point, however. . . How is this "practice" lay-up delaying the game?

Snaqwells wrote
If the player travels the length of the court, by-passing one or more officials along the way, and shoots a layup before heading to his bench, it could easily be considered delaying the game.

Had a partner call a T last year when, following the granting of a timeout, A1 (standing near that partner) launched a twenty foot shot then ended up heading to the bleachers. Partner gave him two chances to retrieve the ball and he refused.

Scrapper1 wrote
How?? 😕 The game is stopped for the next 30 or 60 seconds. Nothing is going to happen anyway. So how he delaying anything?

chseagle

Try rereading my last post as I did an edit to it, stating I saw that BillyMac did post 10-5-3b. The only thing that was not posted was what the penalty is.

Snaqwells wrote
Really? Try again, you can start with Post #9, where BillyMac says this:

Adam

chseagle wrote
Try rereading my last post as I did an edit to it, stating I saw that BillyMac did post 10-5-3b. The only thing that was not posted was what the penalty is.

Because we don't always spell out the obvious.

chseagle

LMAO So more questions can be asked & to make sure the OP learns.

Snaqwells wrote
Because we don't always spell out the obvious.

Jurassic Referee

Snaqwells wrote
I think in both cases (the TO and the "practicing"), a T could reasonably be issued if the official directs the team/player to comply and they refuse. The fact that there's no specific penalty in the rules doesn't mean it can't be considered unsporting to disregard the official's instructions at this point.

But unlike Nevada, you wouldn't call an immediate "T" for practicing without directing the team/player to comply first before issuing the "T"? Correct? Same for sitting during a 30-second TO?

It's a matter of WHACK versus Warn'n'WHACK.

Adam

Jurassic Referee wrote
But unlike Nevada, you wouldn't call an immediate "T" for practicing without directing the team/player to comply first before issuing the "T"? Correct? Same for sitting during a 30-second TO?

It's a matter of WHACK versus Warn'n'WHACK.

Yes, I'd warn/direct compliance first. I like a good cup of tea as much as the next guy, but I'll be working middle school forever around here if I start looking for Ts like this and stretching the rules to call them.

Adam

chseagle wrote
LMAO So more questions can be asked & to make sure the OP learns.

No, because in context, it was obvious that the penalty for the rule Billy quoted was a technical foul. No hidden reasoning at all.

BillyMac

Jurassic Referee wrote
It's a matter of WHACK versus Warn'n'WHACK.

I vote for the later, but only where the player, or players, are being real knuckleheads (I tried to type in some other words instead of knuckleheads but just kept getting a bunch of asterisks). Let's have a poll.

26 Year Gap

A better solution is to report the timeout & start the clock right away so his coach can chew him out for goofing off instead of coming to the bench.

Raymond

MelbRef wrote
My partner shared a game-end snafu situation with me last night. His partners at his game all had a different opinion on how best to handle it. Thought I would share...

5 seconds left in game, Team A up by three with the ball, Team B fouls to stop the clock (no bonus). Team B coach calls timeout.

Here's where it gets interesting:

Team A player (guy who got fouled) casually dribbles to basket and takes a layup on the way to the bench for timeout.

R calls technical foul.

Then...Team B makes one of two technical free throws, gets the throw-in at halfcourt , and makes a game winning 3-point shot to win the game.

Team A coach goes ape, throws clipboard, whole 9 yards.

Would you call a technical for the layup?

What did A1 do with the ball after the lay-up?

Me, I'm telling A1 to bring me the ball. The situation would then be over.

Bad Zebra

MelbRef wrote
...Team A player (guy who got fouled) casually dribbles to basket and takes a layup on the way to the bench for timeout.

R calls technical foul.

Despite the various rulings, citations, etc....in the end, R=OOO

BillyMac

BadNewsRef wrote
What did A1 do with the ball after the lay-up? I'm telling A1 to bring me the ball.

And, for sake of argument, if he didn't comply?

Indianaref

26 Year Gap wrote
A better solution is to report the timeout & start the clock right away so his coach can chew him out for goofing off instead of coming to the bench.

Can't find it, I am sure we don't start the timeout until ALL players have returned to the bench.

BillyMac

Indianaref wrote
Can't find it, I am sure we don't start the timeout until all players have returned to the bench.

IAABO Mechanics Manual: Page 79, I: State and signal to the timer to start the timing device when both teams are near their respective bench areas.

NFHS Manual, Page 38, 2.4.4.B.4: Within the reporting area, give the appropriate timeout signal again for the type of timeout (30 sec or 60 sec), verbally indicate the team color, verbally and visually give the player number or head coach (indicate by forming the shape of a “C” with the hand) making the request, and direct (visually/verbally) the timer to begin the timeout period.

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