when to let it go?
 

I officiated a scrimage game tonight with 6 other officials. We rotated in and things were going fairly good. While I was rotated out I mentioned a situation of travelling. They didn't agree with me. How far should I argue (me being a second year man, and them 5+yr vets)? The topic in question was I mentioned that if you pick up your pivot before you start a dribble it is travelling. They were saying your allowed to pick it up just not put it back down. I tried to explain that on a pass or shot attempt they are correct but not to start a dribble. Advice please!

If they're convinced they're right, you probably aren't going to change their minds. If you get a chance to point out the passage in the book, you might want to do so, just play it by ear. In the meantime, don't let them intimidate you into not making the right call.

The best way to handle this is to just zip it. when you get home send them an email and cite the rule and case book play. if they want to argue the loosing battle wrong then they aren't just wrong but also competley stupid.

Looks Like Another Job For The Mythbusters ...
 

The traveling rule is one of the most misunderstood rules in basketball. To start a dribble, the ball must be released before the pivot foot is lifted. On a pass or a shot, the pivot foot may be lifted, but may not return to the floor before the ball is released.

Been There, Done That.....
 

As has been stated - tell them what you saw, tell them what you believe/know the rule to be and have your say. Then, be done with it and move on.

What's that old expression, "Never argue with an idiot. He'll bring you down to his level and beat you with experience."

I'm not saying they're idiots, but I find some vets/trainers "don't want to listen or g_d forbid, admit they're wrong even if you show em in the book. Shrug. :rolleyes:

Have your say, know you're right, and move on.

PS - took me a while to learn to shut up.

During scrimmages I always have my rulebook nearby because that's when we should be discussing rules and mechanics with each other.

And there is no way I can believe that entire group of 5+ year veterans wouldn't know this basic rule.

I would advise against this, personally. Send an email to your association's rules guru; to the effect of, "I was discussing a play with some local veterans and we had a disagreement. According to 4-44-4b, I think... but they were saying.... Can you verify for me how this should be called?"

If you don't have a rules guru, go to the assigner. If there's no assigner, give it up.

Whatever you do, don't name names or throw any of the vets under the bus. Best case scenario, the rules guy gives a clinic at your next meeting. Worst case, nothing happens.

I was surprised that they all were lost in this issue as well...but thank you everyone for your advise. I just recieved my case book in the mail so I will be highlighting somethings for this weeks meeting. I wont make an issue out of it but just make sure our chapter president understands the confusion within the chapter.

Get used to it
 

As a rule of thumb, motivated 2nd year officials know the letter of the rule(s) better than a large percentage of the vets.

I expect you will encounter this type of situation many times this season.

Take it for what it is. In the above sitch, its not a big deal. Think through, though, how you are going to handle some key point in a game this season, when things are on the line, and your more veteran partners are poised to go the wrong direction. (going A/P when it should be team last in control, or somesuch) How are you going to successfully slow things down, discuss, and 'get the play right'. Its gonna happen, so prepare for it. :)

Snaq I don't recall saying throw anyone under the bus. I said email the guy you had the discussion with and send him the rules citation. I dont think this is one of those ambiguous situations where you need to go asking someone else for help. you cite the facts and move on. why involve someone else in this if its black and white. if they dont accept the facts as is when you present them then its not going to matter if the pope shows up and tells them the same thing.

I never said you would do that; it was just a caveat to my suggestion. Read the post before you take it personally.

Now, I'll address your post further. If the guy wasn't willing to listen to you at the game, he's not going to accept your rules citation. Not if he doesn't know this basic rule. Extending the discussion to email makes you look petty, IMO. I'd let it go as soon as the car was started.

If you want to find a way to get to them, getting the association leadership to address it in a meeting is far better than sending them an "i can't let this go" email.

Snaq, we can disagree on this its ok. because i dont think its petty. usually when yo uhave a rules discuusion at a site unless you have your rule book on you its just conjecture and hearsay. i dont see why someone would still disagree when facts are presented to them.

I'm with deecee on this one. If you can't send a simple email with a rules citatation to your colleagues without fear of some sort blowback or retribution then there is seriously something wrong.

I guess my assumption is that something is already seriously wrong with veteran officials getting this basic play wrong. I will back off and say, depending on how exactly the conversation went and how open you think the veterans are to correction, you could use deecee's response.

I guess my caveat is that I only have these types of discussions in the first place with people who I can trust to have open/candid conversations. I don't even get involved in officiating conversations with people whom I'm not cool with. (except on the internet :) )

My experience is a bit clouded, as I've had a similar (traveling, but a different aspect) discussion with three veteran officials during a game (halftime). In that situation, following up with an email would have looked petty; but we had a rulebook with us and it still didn't do any good.

that is one of the problems I'm having. There is only a select few of the guys that I work with that I even want to take advice from. I'm not trying to come across as a know it all or unteachable but I don't want to take advise from someone that doesn't have what I want. I learned that a few years ago. Don't take financial advise from someone who is broke...or take advise on how to landscape from a plumber...only take it from someone who has what you want. I'm sure I'm not alone on this but I think I'm ticking some guys off in our chapter. Thing is I don't want to be a ten year vet and still doing Jv jr high games...I want varsity games soon and then college games!

Don't take this the wrong way but you are taking a very narrow vantage point to an avocation that is more complicated than just knowing the rules and being a good official. Thousands of people can blow a whistle and call on ball fouls. Impatience in officiating might get you where you want to be fast but the fall will be just as swift. I think its reasonable to say that if you can blow a good game and manage all aspects of it and master these skills quickly, and I think that takes about 3-5 years for a good official to mature to that point. Then its fair to say you should have earned varsity games (Im also not saying you wont do any varsity games within that time but to get a substantial amount 15-20+).

Unless you are a woman who is a good official its practically unheard of to make the college ranks within 3-5 years anyway unless you know someone. If you are a very good female official you stand a good chance to be at the college level within 5 years EASY. 2-3 years might work, but you have to bust your butt at camps, off season games and be seen and when you are seen you impress.

In the end the only real 2 bits of advice I tell any rookie is listen to as many veterans philosophies and use what you are comfortable with, and secondly it's alright to screw up.

I realize that...I'm not saying I'm going to be a division one official next year or anything lol. I just don't want my goals to stop at JV games that's all I ment by that. I really appreciate all your comments, I'll use them all and I'm sure it'll help me in future situations that I'll come accross.

What are you doing that's ticking off the veterans? Stop doing that. No one says you have to take their advice, but no one says you have to tell them you're not taking it either.

With that statement you've just come across as a know it all/unteachable IMO. You can learn something from everyone you work with, whether it be how they handle a situation or better positioning, etc. Never go into a game with the mentality that you don't want to/can't learn from your partner. We're all still learning on some level.

If you feel you're getting the cold shoulder from the vets in your area take a step back and think about it. It could be the way you talk to them, especially those who you don't want to learn from. Maybe its your body language when you talk to them? Eye rolling, that kinda thing? I'm not saying that's the reason why, but it could be. Ask someone who you trust to give an honest opinion of you as an official and partner, you might be surprised at what you hear.

BTW, college ball in two years doesn't usually happen unless you're from SoCal. It's straight to D1 in that case :D

Vehemently arguing with "peers" who have may have more power (years) than you will do you no good. Listen to the guys you want to, don't argue much with guys you don't think are very good. If you are calling it right, and they are not, they'll be in you rear view mirror soon, anyway.

But treat everyone with respect.

Yep. Even on here. :cool:

Never said I was perfect. :rolleyes:

You & TheOracle, both, have made perfect points in this post though!

Why do you folks suppose this is? What are vets working on to maintain their vet statuses, in lieu of rules knowledge?

Game/People management. Coaches are a lot happier with officials that they generally can communicate with than one who knows all the rules but is unapproachable.