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-   -   Offensive Elbow. (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/59849-offensive-elbow.html)

The R Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:00pm

Offensive Elbow.
 
Post player receives pass at free throw line near his basket. Looks to pass but has nothing. Keeps looking for open teammate. Throws elbow behind him while turning with the ball and connects with defense in the kisser.

You sound the whistle with the intention to call a foul.

What are your foul options? Why would you make them?

Adam Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by The R (Post 702948)
Post player receives pass at free throw line near his basket. Looks to pass but has nothing. Keeps looking for open teammate. Throws elbow behind him while turning with the ball and connects with defense in the kisser.

You sound the whistle with the intention to call a foul.

What are your foul options? Why would you make them?

Rule set?

The R Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:22pm

Rule set
 
Sorry I left that part out.
NFHS rules.

Adam Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:26pm

Options: Personal, intentional, or flagrant; based on normal factors.
If you think it was inentional or overly physical, you go with intentional.
If you think it was flagrant (like he was trying to loosen some teeth), go flagrant.
If not, you can go with personal.

This assumes that you've already determined it was a foul; no-call is an option depending on the circumstance.

Cobra Wed Nov 24, 2010 02:08am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 702965)
Options: Personal, intentional, or flagrant; based on normal factors.

You must mean common foul. Personal fouls are just live ball contact fouls which can be intentional or flagrant.

Jurassic Referee Wed Nov 24, 2010 07:17am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobra (Post 702992)
You must mean common foul. Personal fouls are just live ball contact fouls which can be intentional or flagrant.

Naw, Snaqs meant personal foul. A personal foul can also be a common foul by rule.

NFHS rule 4-19-2- "A common foul is a personal foul..."

To be completely accurate, the options if you do call a foul are player-control foul, intentional personal foul and flagrant personal foul.

Cobra Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 703000)
Naw, Snaqs meant personal foul. A personal foul can also be a common foul by rule.

NFHS rule 4-19-2- "A common foul is a personal foul..."

To be completely accurate, the options if you do call a foul are player-control foul, intentional personal foul and flagrant personal foul.

The definition for intentional and flagrant starts out basically the same way. A personal foul is just a foul which involves illegal contact while the ball is live. That personal foul can be intentional or flagrant. If it isn't intentional nor flagrant, nor against a player who is shooting, nor a double, multiple, or simultaneous foul (I think that is all of them) then it is a common foul. A player control foul is a type of common foul.

MelbRef Wed Nov 24, 2010 01:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 702965)
Options: Personal, intentional, or flagrant; based on normal factors.
If you think it was inentional or overly physical, you go with intentional.
If you think it was flagrant (like he was trying to loosen some teeth), go flagrant.
If not, you can go with personal.

This assumes that you've already determined it was a foul; no-call is an option depending on the circumstance.

Under what circumstance would a no-call be an option?
Not challenging, just wondering.

mbyron Wed Nov 24, 2010 01:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelbRef (Post 703057)
Under what circumstance would a no-call be an option?
Not challenging, just wondering.

A1 has the ball and pivots. B1 gets bumped slightly with the elbow at the end of the pivot, which is moving with A1's hips in his pivot. Neither player disadvantaged by the contact.

Adam Wed Nov 24, 2010 06:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 703058)
A1 has the ball and pivots. B1 gets bumped slightly with the elbow at the end of the pivot, which is moving with A1's hips in his pivot. Neither player disadvantaged by the contact.

Or B1 is leaning over top of A1 who is bent over after getting the rebound, A1 pivots and straightens up, knocking B1 in the teeth with his elbow. Assuming A1's pivot equaled the speed of his elbows, could be a no-call.

26 Year Gap Wed Nov 24, 2010 06:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by The R (Post 702948)
Post player receives pass at free throw line near his basket. Looks to pass but has nothing. Keeps looking for open teammate. Throws elbow behind him while turning with the ball and connects with defense in the kisser.

You sound the whistle with the intention to call a foul.

What are your foul options? Why would you make them?

Did he throw the elbow? Was he pivoting when the elbow was 'thrown'? And if so, as Snaqs pointed out, was he holding the ball with elbows outstretched and those elbows were not going any faster than the pivot?

The R Wed Nov 24, 2010 07:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap (Post 703130)
Did he throw the elbow? Was he pivoting when the elbow was 'thrown'? And if so, as Snaqs pointed out, was he holding the ball with elbows outstretched and those elbows were not going any faster than the pivot?

Yes offense threw the elbow. No he was turning some but not pivoting.
Ball was being held and the elbows moved faster than the rest of the body.


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