end of UConn-Baylor: shot-clock violation?
 

Great game tonight. End of the game had an interesting situation from both an officiating and coaching perspective.

Baylor Lady Bears vs. Connecticut Huskies - Recap - November 16, 2010 - ESPN
(go to the 1:30 mark)

Despite the Barb Jacobs quote, I replayed the last UConn shot a few times on my DVR and clearly there was no Baylor possession when the shot clock horn sounds. Not clear on the above linked video, but the shot clock sounds as the rebound hits the Baylor player's one hand, then bounces once before she secures and advances the ball.

Officiating thought: I think I would call this violation. Whenever it's this close (and IMO this was) I err on the side of the violation. Although at the end of a high-level game like this, I'm wondering if this is a case of "letting the players decide the game".

Coaching thought: Baylor could have told players to NOT catch an airball, allowing the clock to stop on the violation and giving them a chance to set something up with 5-6 seconds remaining. They were out of timeouts.

Thoughts?

Clearly a violation. They missed it. Oh well.

Disagree 100%. The Baylor player clearly had the ball prior to the horn sounding, thus no shot clock violation. After she had possession of the rebound she bobbled/hesitated but that has no effect on a shot clock.

She touched the ball, but never possessed it. Remember that control is HOLDING or DRIBBLING the ball. She did not clearly control the ball until after it bounced, clearly after the horn, IMHO.

She had two hands on the ball as the horn sounds. Even makes a move to keep the ball from the defender. I cant see the ball hit the ground from the ESPN view, it looks more like she MAY have lost control of the ball as she was swinging it away from the defender. Even if it did hit the floor, it was after she had the rebound secured.

Wow, I saw the replay twice and that's not what I saw at all. I'm going to search for a clip online now. If you're right, I'll have to adjust my comments, but I didn't see it that way at all.

I could only find one clip with a quick search and it's the clip I saw on SportsCenter. I could not tell if the ball hit the floor before she controlled it, I have to admit. But I still don't think she controlled it cleanly before the clock was at zero.

Listen for the horn and the movement of her hands. She is moving the ball away from the UConn defender as the horn sounds.

How do you listen for movement of her hands? :confused:

Movement of hands does not mean possession.

Let me ask my original question another way. A1 shoots and releases, shot clock horn sounds during try, ball does not hit rim. when do you blow whistle for shot clock violation?

I believe anything other than a clean, uncontested rebound/possession by Team B merits a whistle. This includes:

* touch by B2
* touch by A2
* ball hits floor untouched

How is this: Listen for the horn and WATCH the movement of her hands? Hopefully that clears it up for you. The rebound falls into her hands, she then proceedes to attempt to clear the ball away from the UConn defender. It is very difficult if not impossible to jerk the ball away from a defender if you do not have control.
The play you describe is not the play that happened. The Baylor player had control of the ball when the horn sounded. In your play the ball is still in the air when the horn sounds.

Jud-
So in your opinion, if UConn player takes the ball from the Baylor girl during her "securing", you would say legal and game over?

You're wrong. If the horn sounds during the try, then it's a violation as soon as the try ends (in this example, likely to be when it's evident that the try will not be successful). Even if B gets the "rebound" it's a vioaltion (the vioaltion happens before that).

The key is the difference between "Securing" and "Secured"

I apologize for being disagreeing in my first post ever, but please explain.

If the horn sounds while the ball is in the air and the defensive team grabs the rebound, why is it a shot clock violation?

Because the violation happens before the change in team control (which resets the clock).

See AR 225 (2)

I see. I guess it makes sense that way.

You have to ask yourself, "Self, what is the violation for?" The violation is for failing to comply with the rules regarding the shot clock. And those rules make no provision for disregarding the violation if the non-shooting team gets the rebound.

NCAA 9-11.2 "It is a violation when a try for field goal does not leave the shooter’s hand before the expiration of the allotted shot-clock time or a try does not subsequently strike the ring or flange or enter the basket."

A.R. 225. A1 releases the ball on a try for goal. After the ball leaves A1’s hand(s), the shot-clock horn sounds. The ball:
(2) Hits the backboard and rebounds directly to A2 or B1 without hitting the ring or flange;
RULING:
(2) A shot-clock violation by Team A has occurred because the try did not hit the ring or flange. The referee shall sound the whistle, and the ball shall be awarded to Team B at a designated spot nearest to where the violation occurred. (Rule 9-11.2)

Ncaa 9-11.2
 

total agreement with the rule interpretations, though i see it happen so often where the violation is not called if the defense rebounds the airball.

Ummm...what Bob said. Never argue with Bob. ;)

If it's close, then (generally) go with "B got the rebound first"

But, if it's clear, ...

Sometimes it's difficult to tell whether the horn came before the rebounder secured control of the ball, in which case I'll err on the side of letting play continue. But I've also had crew chiefs who pre-gamed that if the non-shooting team gets the rebound after the horn we're not going to whistle the violation.

The only problem I have with that, and in the NCAA it could be different, but nobody is in control of the ball when the ball leaves the shooters hands. It is no longer controlled by Team A and when Team B grabs the ball, there should be no violation.

I see the rule. I understand. And I know NCAA and NF rules are totally different. But it seems like this should be consistent.

It's a little difficult to be consistent on this rule when the NF doesn't have a shot clock.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. Team control rules should be more consistent...

They are pretty consistent. The only difference between the two is during a throw-in.

Then if Team A is not in control of the basketball, how can they be called for a shot clock violation after the ball is released if Team B gets the rebound?

Because in some instances the violation occurs before Team B secures the rebound. Might make a 1/2 a second to full second difference on the game clock.

But if the horn goes off and the shot hits the rim, it's not a violation. The violation occurred mid-shot, why not stop the play for a violation? See what I mean. There's no consistency in that rule.

I digress. I'm not going to change the rule...so...who cares?

I reject your notion of consistency, and substitute my own. ;)

The end of team control does not restart the shot clock, otherwise there could be no requirement for the shot to hit the rim. Your issue is not with the team control rule, but the shot clock rule itself.

the shotclock horn is merely a timing device. as referenced previously by BITS, the violation (and hopefully a subsequent whistle) occurs when "try does not subsequently strike the ring or flange or enter the basket", not when horn sounds.

Think about a shot in the air when the horn goes off to end a half/game - when does that period actually end? Does the horn end the shot?

The violation doesn't occur until we know that the shot hasn't hit the rim, not simply when the horn goes off. It is very similar in theory to the horn ending a period/game - the game ends when the shot ends. In both situations, the shot must leave the shooter's hand before the horn goes off as well.

Again. It makes sense. Just doesn't seem very consistent to me.

I'm not sure what's not consistent. The violation is for failing to release a shot that hits the rim within the required time frame. Team control has nothing to do with it.

I am not 100% on this one, but I can't think of any violations you can commit without team control. If you no longer have control of the basketball, how can you be charged with a violation if when the violation supposedly occurs, the other team has control?

I can COMPLETELY agree if Team A gets the board or even if Team A touches it or if the ball hits the floor beforehand.

But I think it's wrong to call it when Team B gets the ball before it hits the ground.

That's all. I'm done with arguing my thoughts. I'm wrong. I understand.

Leaving the court for an unauthorized reason and excessive swinging of the elbows ;)

Let's see, violations where team control does not exist, or where your team does not have control:

* Free throw violations by defense
* Throw-in violations (NFHS rules)
* Reaching through the boundary on a throw-in
* Leaving the floor for an unauthorized reason
* Kicking the ball
* Striking ball with a fist
* Ball entering basket from below
* Jump ball violations
* Basket interference
* Goaltending
* Excessive swinging of elbows

It seems that there are more than can occur without team control than those that actually require team control. ;)

Shot clock violations are, essentially, delayed violations. The violation is for not releasing a shot that hits the rim or goes in; but you don't know it's a violation until the shot misses. Actually, there are a lot of violations that can be committed without team control.

The fact is, with the shot clock violation, team control isn't really a concern, otherwise an airball taken with 27 seconds left on the shot clock would result in a re-set due to loss of team control.

You forgot OOB violations.

The only ones that require team control are:
traveling
illegal dribble
3 seconds
5 seconds
10 seconds
backcourt

Whoops, I had overlooked the possibility of causing an OOB violation without team control. Nice catch.

Wrong Adage ...
 

It's "Always listen to bob".

Perhaps. But it should be "Never argue with Bob." While not listening to Bob does sometimes get me into trouble, every time I argue with Bob...I lose. ;)

Here in California we have a shot clock for high school.

This topic has been going round on our association "Forum,"

The violation occurs when it is determined that the ball does not hit the rim, but we have some who think that we should re-set the game clock to where it was when the shot clock sounded and the ball subsequenlty did not hit the rim. I disagree with that, but there is no specific interpretation regarding that issue.


Just looking for thoughts on this. We are contacting the state rules interpretor on this.

It's not my issue...you have me confused with some else. :)

That's the NBA rule.

I'm reasonably certain that there's an NCAA AR on this point (and the answer is "do not re-set the clock.") I don't have time to look it up now.

Want to continue? Because this is getting very old.

1. There is no team control during a throw-in in NFHS rules.
2. DOG warnings are technically violations, the 2nd of which is enforced with a technical foul.
3. You really think a person has to be in control of the ball to make it go through the hoop? Would a person need to be in control to knock it out of bounds?
4. As for elbow swinging; the point isn't the potential or probability but the rule itself. Few of us have ever seen a player without the ball do it, but some have and I believe some on this board have even called it (rebounders for example.) Another example, one I gave in another thread, would be the thrower on a throwin doing it.

Apparently not old enough b/c some of your reponses to Back in the Saddle are incorrect. :)

And this one:

How about 2 guys battling for low post or rebouding position and one guy gets frustrated and swings his elbow to create space.

I do. You had some very, very basic errors in your rebuttal.

1) There is no player or team control during a throw-in, including when the ball is at the disposal of a team(NFHS case book play 4.12COMMENT)
2) Leaving the floor for an unauthorized reason IS a violation, NOT a technical foul. NFHS rule 9-3-3.
3) Having player or team control has nothing to do with it being a violation for making the ball enter the basket from below. It can go off a player's head on a rebound up through the basket and that is a violation. NFHS rule 9-4.
4) Similarly, the violation for swinging the elbows has got nuthin' to do wwith player or team control either. It might be unlikely, but even if no player or team control is involved it's still a violation to swing your elbows without hitting someone.

Reading time!

Don't take it personally. It's not about being right or wrong. I see you're new, so I thought I would share that the value of this board (for me) is the wealth of knowledge and experience of others, and the willingness for them to help us improve rule knowledge.

Hopefully you will recognize the thorough responses provide you with the relevant information you need. This info might serve you better than than throwing around terms like 'control' and 'violation' without a strong understanding of how they are defined in the rulebook.

I consider myself experienced, but always learn something new about the rules that gives me more confidence to take to the court.

Welcome to the boards, and keep on posting.

NCAA Casebook Rule 2 A.R. 33 should cover this issue.....