Primary Coverage area
 

Discussion at my last Officials meeting on dealing with coaches when asked why a call was not made when its in my partner's primary.

Any advice on dealing with coaches on this question?

Why is it a sensitive issue when one official makes a call outside of his primary area?

"Coach, he had a great look at that play, you'll have to ask him what he saw."

1. Because you're usually wrong, no matter how sure you are.
2. Because you're undermining your partner who, for all you know, saw the play and had a reason for passing on any call.
3. Because if you're watching your partner's primary, who's watching yours?

"Coach, he had a great look at the play it in his primary. Ask him when you get a chance."

As a general rule, I do not explain calls I did not see or I am not sure why something was called or not called.

I think this depends on where and who you officiate with and where and who made a call. Almost anything in the lane is fair game for most officials as the angles change and each official can make a call. For the lead to call something at the division line is another story. And when you are wrong (which you often are wrong when calling completely out of your primary) it then changes the expectations of the other officials to call something they "think" took place in another area. Coaches often do not understand what we are looking at and if you call something that out of your area they will expect this all game.

Peace

"Coach, I was watching a matchup in my area. I trust him to do the same."

1. Because you're usually wrong, no matter how sure you are.
2. Because you're undermining your partner who, for all you know, saw the play and had a reason for passing on any call.
3. Because if you're watching your partner's primary, who's watching yours?


If you're working the plate in a baseball game, are you going to make a call at second base?

If you working as a back judge in a football game, are you going to call roughing the passer.

Basketball is no different. Each official has his area of the court to officiate.

Trust your partner.

Repeat after me:

That might have been a _______, but if he can't call it from there, no way can I call it from here.

And I shouldn't have been looking in there anyway.



Starting my 24th season, and I still say that to myself on occasion.

There's An Elephant In This Room ???
 

Sometimes, rarely, very rarely, very very rarely, you can't ignore the four hundred pound gorilla on the court. Maybe your partner was checking out the hot mom in the fourth row?

Perhaps he was watching your area, since he knew you would be watching his? :eek:

Maybe Once A Season ???
 

Good point. But sometimes you can look through your area and see part of your partner's area in your field of vision. Plus we are supposed to be aware of where the ball is, and where our partner is, and in doing so, we may see that gorilla, or elephant, when our partner is getting some pixie dust out of his eye.

I was, of course, being a little silly. ;)

As well as what you have said, if there are no matchups in your area, you are supposed to expand into your partner's area and referee the matchups away from the ball. Plus each official has secondary areas where he is expected to blow (e.g., if the L goes wide to cover a matchup at the three point line, T extends and picks up the post).

+1

Remember our main objective is to get calls right! Sometimes we have to go outside of our PCA for the good of the GAME. Officials that are in it for the GAME understand this & generally thank their partners for having their backside covered.

Many plays during the GAME should be refereed using a team officiating concept. There are front & back sides to screening plays... I've noticed that officials who attend camps regularly & work at higher levels are more open to this mindset.

I was told to follow the 3 Bs when going outside of my PCA:
1. BE late (give the proper official an opportunity to make the call)
2. BE needed (dont go fishing for a marginal violation/incidental contact)
3. BE right (no explanation needed)

My only quibble is with newer officials. The OP is a newer official, and in my opinion, they really need to focus on learning how to stay in their primary. The ability to see elephants outside the primary comes with experience.

Agreed. Rookies (and all of us were once rookies) ballhawk. They don't have the discipline and understanding to stay in their area.

Absolutely Snaqs!!
We must first discipline ourselves to referee effeciently in our own PCA before assisting our partners.

I just wanted the OP to know that there are exceptions to the "dont call in MY area, rookie" mindset.

And I think the others were rightly disagreeing with you: if you're really addressing a rookie, then that's substantively good advice (depending on tone of voice). Rookies should probably never call outside of their area; better to miss a few in a MS girls game than end up a ballhawk (good term!) and be stuck doing MS girls forever.

Extremely good advice (as usual).

Another way to think of all of this is: PRIMARY doesn't mean ONLY. Otherwise, they'd call it the "Only Coverage Area."

Thats why rookies should find a mentor, simply saying "stay out of MY area" w/out explaining the reasoning can be quite confusing.
It hasn't been too long since I was in The Rookies shoes & had to invest big bucks to attend camps & unlearn all the MS/HS bs :(

Officiating your PCA with great accuracy, seeing as many of the other players as possible & knowing where the ball & your partner(s) are, is what its all about.

I hear what you're saying but lets teach them the right way, not tell them half truths.

2 person game, (L is a vet & the T is a rookie) down by 1 late in the 4th Q A1 drives to the basket from the Ls area (opposite table) B1 quickly grabs & releases the tableside arm & the ball goes out on the endline. The L points the other way, the T sees what the entire bench sees.
The rookie passed on the obvious foul for fear of "calling in front of the vet."
A1 picks up an intentional foul on the subsequent throw-in & now the benches clear. Was that right for the game?

Assignor: What happened out there? The tape clearly shows a foul!

Vet: I didnt see it...

Rookie: I saw it, the coach saw that I saw it but he told me in pregame to stay in my area & he would stay in his. :rolleyes:

As an evaluator or someone that acts as a clinician in my state, I would ask a different question. I would ask the person that had the play in their primary "What did you see?" Then let them explain what they saw. They may have a very good reason why they did or did not make a call. Even if the rookie makes a call, does not mean they saw the entire play. They might have seen the second or third action which still would be wrong. And if they make a call out of their area, they better not miss anything in their area. So that "I saw the foul but we talked about that..." may not save you.

Peace

Not sure what you mean by all the HS bs?

In addition to those things, "dont call in my area", "I dont care if its a gamer, let him live & die with that IC"... shall I go on?

I can't believe no-one has said this yet. What if the mom is a 400-pound gorilla?

Anyway, doesn't this topic really come down to communication? In the pre-game, I always tell my partner that I have no problem if he calls something in my PCA, as I could have been straightlined, and ultimately, it's about getting it right on the court and serving the players, not each other's ratings.

Been using 3 b's for years, I 'just' do high school games and I guess I'm lucky, my partners tend to have a team concept.

Thats whats up!

You are in a fortunate situation!

Fullor30 is from my area. That is what is taught all over the area and in many parts of the state.

Peace

Illy brings the noise! Many high level officials come out of there.

I have the same experience. I work the same way; if you call something in my area I'm going to assume you saw something that needed grabbing.

Again, this question was posed by a rookie wanting to know why it matters. Do i tell rookie partners to stay out of my area? No. That would make me an elitist pr1ck. :D

I would, however, save the concept of the 3 Bs for 3-5 year officials.

You had to UNLEARN all the high school bs? You NEVER knew the HS bs(as you call it) that well, Ch!town.

Lah me.....delusions of grandeur.

What 90% of the people on this forum do is High School bs......:rolleyes:

While I generally espouse your philosophy, it needs to be tempered with some wisdom and experience. I have no problem with my partner coming and getting something, even in front of me, that needs to be gotten. But before I will go and get something in front of my partner, I ask myself some questions.

First, am I reasonably certain my partner did not see what I saw? Was he straightlined, screened, did what I saw happen on the back side of the play, did the play curl away from him, was he likely watching something else? If not, I'm going to leave it alone.

Second, am I reasonably certain I saw the whole play, or at least all of the portion of the play that was problematic? If not, I'm going to leave it alone.

Third, how reliable is the angle I had on the play. The wrong angle can make it appear that contact occurred when it really didn't.

One of the virtues of "Be late" is it gives you a little time to process those questions in your own mind.

Makes sense Snaqs!

I hear ya JR... way to put your own spin on it. Never said the HS level was bs, the mentality of some who work that level is though.

As long as the people that do the hiring & scheduling like what I do ;)
Your internet opinions of me & my abilities simply do not matter. But I told you this once before.

Oh, I don't know, I've run into more college bs from a smaller sample of officials than bad high school attitudes.

Speaking more on mental approaches to the GAME than individual attitudes.

I have said this before and I will say this again. The best officials I have worked at the high school level are almost always college officials or have college experience. And the main reason is they go to camps on a regular basis and they realize their responsibility. And most of all they do not defer to others to take care of business or speak for them. Many long time high school veterans do things they did 20 years ago and stop evolving as officiating as evolved in that same time.

Peace

Bingo!

I sure hope I dont have to come from L (opposite table) to take care of an out of control coach, just because it doesnt "bother" my partner or they dont "feel like" doing paperwork :rolleyes:

I'm not going to disagree with any of this, because I can't. You're right, most of the best officials I've worked with work some college.

But they're also the ones who decide to use college mechanics in a HS game. They're also the ones who misapply rules because they're using NCAA rules rather than NFHS.

Is it universal? No. Is it a majority? No. Is it a significant minority? No. But it happens often enough to warrant mention.

And the fact is I've had more bs from college officials working hs games than from hs officials.

So you're saying that the high school game has a mental approach that is inherently problematic (aka "bs")?

Such as?

Not overall, just some officials that work the HS game. See post # 19

That is bs too, use the preferred mechanics/rules of the level you are working that night.

Post #19 reflects the attitude I've experienced at the high school level; get it right. I haven't seen the territorial types you seem to have.

Ch!town, you used to be completely full of sh!t. Now with your newly-gained vast experience in the last year or so, you're only down a pint.

Feel free to tell us all about the state high school finals and NCAA D1 games you're now doing since you changed your name and locale.

You'll never change. You'll aways be the same ol' Ch!town that we knew and loved. :)

You sir, have been more fortunate than I. Perhaps you working the 7pm primetime contests & me working the 4pm opening act is the difference :D


JR dont you have some turnbacks to re-assign?

I'll take 'em! Games are little light to come by this year.

Work for JR? Better you than me!!
Hell, I dont think he would ever give me a game :D

Really? Here in Hell they all love to run tip-off tournaments at this time of year....J/V, V, etc. And it usually takes 'em all a coupla games to adjust back to what we allow them to get away with versus the loosey-goosey AAU/rec ball games they've been playing all summer.

We have a fair amount of tournaments going on but I can't seem to swing any. Guess I need another year or two.

That I don't agree with, from my standpoint anyway. These opening games are a perfect time to see how some of the newer guys have improved with summer games, camps, etc. and whether they're now ready to move up. Put 'em in with an experienced official and evaluate both of 'em. I can't look at 'em all but we've got an evaluation committee set-up to help me out.

JMO

For the record I am almost primarily talking about Men's officials and boy's basketball. And Men's mechanics almost entirely mirror what we do at the NF from coverage area to signals. So there are not many "college mechanics" they do that would be in conflict. But there are signals that officials use that are not in any book and it does not matter what level the officials are you will see those from time to time.

Peace

Since Snaqs & I are in the same board, I unfortunately know of which he speaks:

1. OOB - no stop clock, just point
2. Walking & talking
3. 2 handed reporting
4. Not awarding FTs on throw-in foul situations (team control in NCAA not in HS)
5. Hit to the head signal

And, 4 of the 5 of those have absolutely nothing to do with how well they call the game, how good of a partner they are, or anything that really matters. Sure, everyone should follow the prescribed mechanics, but these things are way down the list of things that make a good official.

I happen to find it quite difficult to switch things like #1 form game to game. I think the signal that comes out is more of a reflex than a thoughtful choice. If the person is working a fair amount of college games and is focusing on improving those mechanics, it they will probably do those things, not out of trying to big time you, but out of habit.

There is little reason why the two levels are different on 1, 2, 3, and 5. They are different, sure, but no major reason.

Absolutely!!
Getting the calls right is most important, but thats what I have been saying all along.

That being said, D-League officials who also work DI dont use the loose ball foul mechanic in the ACC :D
It takes much discipline to go back & forth using the correct mechanics from night to night. And if they do it, we should too, JMO.

1. In my area most people stop the clock. That is not an NCAA-M mechanic as we are to still stop the clock. If you ever attended a camp with John Adams or even Dale Kelley this was required. Actually it would identify you more as a Women's official. ;)

2. Officials did this regardless of their mechanics. But once again this is not a NCAA mechanic on the Men's side.

3. Not a widely accepted Men's mechanic and not used or taught.

4. I have high school officials that screw this up all the time or do not know this rule.

5. I have seen guys do that regardless of their level.

The problem is that many times we assume things people do has something to actually do with college. College mechanics did not have all these procedures and I saw officials doing them. But we are not talking about signals which you will find all officials have some idiosyncrasies that are not perfect. And I have yet to be called out on them or see them called out on many of them unless they think you can officiate and it is a pet peeve of the person observing. I know people that get upset if you do not use all four fingers on a directional signal. Ultimately who really cares if you get the call right. But college officials in my experience know when to call out of their primary and when not to.

Peace

Actually, the bigges one I've seen is TF administration; wanting to go POI on a single T. I had to correct two Rs on that point, in game, last year. To be fair, it's not a major problem. My point is, however, when high school guys are messing up on the mechanics, they're generally accepting of feedback.

And, for the record, the "Big Time" attitude isn't exclusive to either group. I've just seen it with a higher percentage of the "college guys."

In all my sports there are officials that get rules mixed up. It happens when you are working one on Friday and Saturday afternoon you are working another level. Then you have to go back and work a high school game that night. It is not difficult to forget the differences from time to time if you are not careful. I know before every college game I have to review certain rules just to make sure I am straight. Not as hard for me when I work high school as I can go several games without working a college game. But when that does happen, I have to review the rules especially on those double header Saturdays.

I think that is an area thing. Might apply in most areas, but where I live college guys work high school games all the time. Even those that work D1 ball will work a high school game or tournament. But when I talk to others in that live in other states it is clear they get shut out for whatever reason to work high school. I guess I am fortunate because Friday night is a big high school night. Not many college games if any are played on Friday and so if you can work you will get games regardless of your overall schedule if you want to. In my area you cannot “big time” many of us because we know who is working and a college staff. My point is ego has not level. There are always guys that have an ego that is out of control or tries to make others feel lesser than. I guess it is ultimately how you deal with it.

Peace

It seems like this kind of became the annual thread where people want license to look and call all over the court. Oh boy! Yes, there are reasons and times to call out of our primary, but many people want an excuse to do it more than necessary. Also, isn't it a coincidence that it always happens on ball? When is the last time someone mentioned calling out of their primary for an off-ball call? Hmmm, I wonder why (cough, ball-watching, cough).

I agree with what others have said: four out of those five things don't matter when it comes to quality officiating.