College Question - Elbows
 

First college game ever. Here's the sitch:

Pre-Game:
Our Chief states that he is not interested in setting precedent on any elbow swings. U1 and I suggest that if the situation arises, we should get together and discuss just in case someone has additional information.

Game:
During first half, guard #23 who is having a good start is now being tightly guarded on the wing. #23 fakes right then spins and hits the defender in the face with elbow. Defense goes down. Call is made by U1. The officials come together and the calling official wants to go intentional. CC comes in and tries to talk partner out of the IF. At halftime the CC states that they did not want the U1 to rule IF.

A little background. There have been issues with the CC in the past, but they get a smoking schedule and they have the ears of the assignor. The person is part of a group that has gotten officials run off, so it is not easy dealing with this person. I feel bad for U1 on this one.

A couple of questions:
1) What do you think of the call?
2) What do you think of the way things transpired?
3) What would you do?

Was it a swinging elbow or a stationary elbow? If it was a swinging elbow and the contact was above the defenders shoulders and a foul was called it must me at least an intentional foul by rule...you may upgrade to a flagrant if need be.

The new rule change for 2010-2011 states that when an elbow is swung/moved in such a way that it creates non-incidental contact above the shoulders and yet is not deemed excessive, that foul must be a minimum of an intentional foul. The following information is intended to provide more detail about what this rule change is and is not.

1. Specific Rule Language.

This rule will be added to NCAA Basketball Rule 10-1.13, among others places, in the 2012 Rule book when it is published in the summer of 2011. The following is a draft of the new rule language and may appear differently in the book.

Rule 10-1 Personal fouls (live ball contact)

When the action of the arm(s) and elbows resulting from total body movement, as in pivoting or movement of the ball incidental to feinting (faking) with it, releasing it, or moving it to prevent a held ball or loss of control, illegally contacts an opponent BELOW the shoulders during a live ball, that illegal contact may not be considered a flagrant foul for excessive swinging (Rule 4-36.7), but a personal foul, common or intentional, has been committed.

When the action of the arm(s) and elbows resulting from total body movement, as in pivoting or movement of the ball incidental to feinting (faking) with it, releasing it, or moving it to prevent a held ball or loss of control, illegally contacts an opponent ABOVE the shoulders during a live ball, that illegal contact may not be considered a flagrant foul for excessive swinging (Rule 4-36.7), but a minimum of an intentional foul has been committed.

Any foul involving excessive swinging of the arm(s) and elbow(s) (Rule 4-36.7), either above or below the shoulders during a live ball, or that otherwise meets the requirements of Rule 4-29.2.c and 4-29.3.f.1 shall be penalized by a flagrant personal foul.

+1 on this. The rule was put in place for a reason. The thing was to determine if it was above/below the shoulder and/or a ecessive swinging/stationary elbow. Trust me, Flagrant Foul's usually standout like a sour thumb.

You mean, what do I think about calling a new rule the way that the Coordinator of Men's Basketball is adamant about calling it? Duh. Of course it's the right call. (As long as it happened the way you describe it.) Elbow to the head is a MINIMUM of intentional foul this year. It's not up for debate.

I think the CC acted like a complete jerk. You have a new rule, and a video that everyone has seen that tells you exactly how to call it. And you have a partner telling you not to call it that way.

I would tell the CC (in the locker room) that I respectfully disagree with his approach. I would email the assignor immediately following the game and describe the situation and the call and ask if he thought I handled it correctly and if not, how he would suggest handling it in the future. Then I would continue to call it correctly in the future.

Definitely not flagrant from my point of view.

[QUOTE=Scrapper1;699110]You mean, what do I think about calling a new rule the way that the Coordinator of Men's Basketball is adamant about calling it? Duh. Of course it's the right call. (As long as it happened the way you describe it.) Elbow to the head is a MINIMUM of intentional foul this year. It's not up for debate.

From what I was able to see on the spin, the player was beginning to drive to the basket and caught the defense in the face while on the move. The defender was to the right side and took a shot in the face.

It was not the typical situation when you think of elbow swinging when the offense has both hands on the ball.

The dribble had started with the left hand and the right arm was not in contact with the ball.

Sorry for the omission, not intended.

Your Crew Chief is an idiot who already has his schedule secure and doesn't care what affect his "advise" has on his parnters' careers. But that's just my opinion from a distance.

Now, back to the play. In one of my scrimmages the crew on the court missed an elbow to the face. We saw it on the sidelines and so did the victim's coach. The coach immediately turned to us and said (in a friendly tone) "Hey!!! That's the new rule, right?....You see, we coaches do pay attention to the rules"

I guarantee you your CC is going to get burned by this play this year if his U's don't come in and save his butt.

1. It is an intentional foul. In order to be a flagrant foul, it had to be deemed excessive. It does not sound like that.

2. I think you were totally wrong to "get together as a crew." Each of you is responsible to know the rules and use your judgment in applying the rules to the game situation. If U1 saw an elbow contact an opponent above the shoulder (and determined it is illegal contact), then there is no discussion.

3. I would have called the intentional foul. I would do nothing now.

+1

In some conferences they are telling crews to come together when this happens.

Even if the elbow is stationary and there is contact to the head that is deemed a foul it must also be a minimum of an IF.

I have had this incident happen a couple of times over the years. Early on I 'went with it', but have since changed my approach. I have found that video doesn't lie and it is hard (but unfortunately) not impossible to be thrown under the bus when you have video proof.. I had on of our assignors BFF's say several years ago they didn't want us to call the new "hand check" rule and said he would make our life hell if we did. My partner and I went out and called it like we were supposed to and this fine person came in at half and said, If that is the way you are going to be then you can call the damn game by yourselves and expect not to work anymore. Sure enough he only blew his whistle on OB plays near him. Fortunately for us, even though the game was ugly, one of the coaches sent the tape to the supervisor for clarification on how the new hand check rule should be called. It is tough to do, but you can't get in trouble for doing what you are supposed to.

1. It is an intentional foul. In order to be a flagrant foul, it had to be deemed excessive. It does not sound like that.

2. I think you were totally wrong to "get together as a crew." Each of you is responsible to know the rules and use your judgment in applying the rules to the game situation. If U1 saw an elbow contact an opponent above the shoulder (and determined it is illegal contact), then there is no discussion.

3. I would have called the intentional foul. I would do nothing now.

That's not my understanding.

Stationary: Common, intentional or flagrant, whether above or below the shoulders (although I'm having a hard time coming up with an example of I or F in this case)

Excessively Swinging (as in the definition): Flagrant, whether above or below the shoulders.

Swinging, but not excessively: Above the shoulders -- I or F; Below the Shoulders -- C, I or F

What has to be deemed excessive? The swing of the elbow? If that's what you mean, then I'm not sure I agree with this. By definition, a flagrant foul includes "severe" contact. You can cause severe contact, even without excessively swinging your elbows.

If you mean that the contact has to be deemed excessive, then I still disagree, because by definition, that would merely be an intentional foul.

Just thought I'd throw that out there, FWIW, which may be nothing.

NCAA-M: Any elbow that connects above the shoulders that is deemed not to be incidental must be ruled either intentional or flagrant; common foul is not an option for any elbow above the shoulders. Non-excessive elbows below the shoulders can be incidental, common, intentional, or flagrant.

This is the language to which I was referring:

Any foul involving excessive swinging of the arm(s) and elbow(s) (Rule 4-36.7), either above or below the shoulders during a live ball, or that otherwise meets the requirements of Rule 4-29.2.c and 4-29.3.f.1 shall be penalized by a flagrant personal foul.

Excessive Swinging
 

<table style="display: none;" class="ruleContentToolbarTable" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr align="right"><td id="ruleContentToolbarTd" align="right"> Link to Article <input id="ruleContentShareTextbox58cc81b1-44be-409b-b7b4-1339a7a181e9" style="width: 100%;" class="ruleContentLinkImage" value="http://ncaawbb.arbitersports.com/front/104884/Rules/Book?rulebookId=058dc4f0-2cc0-4422-bf38-1329e97f8103&nodeId=58cc81b1-44be-409b-b7b4-1339a7a181e9" type="input"> Note Penalty Case Ruling Rule Comment Image Table Figure Exception </td></tr></tbody></table>
NCAA 4-36-7 (same for men and women):

The following shall be considered excessive swinging:
a. When arm(s) and elbow(s) are swung about while using the shoulders as pivots, and the speed of the extended arm(s) and elbow(s) exceeds that of the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot; or
b. When the speed and vigor with which the arm(s) and elbow(s) are swung is such that injury could result if another player were contacted.

The guidance on the women's side is that if the official deems the elbow contact with an opponent, above or below the shoulders, to be excessive, then the penalty is a flagrant foul. If it during a live ball, it is a flagrant personal foul; if during a dead ball, it is a flagrant technical foul.

Bob, maybe you should pay attention!:D Actually, I think the "clarifications" and "addendum's" will come flying before we hit Christmas.
From what was demonstrated during the summer an elbow to the head deemed a foul is Intentional or Flagrant. Example: Player sets a screen with elbows out at shoulder level. Defender takes the elbow in the head. Intentional, regardless if the elbows moved or not. If they take it in the shoulder etc then common. That is not to say I have not heard your interp either. As for me, I will err on the side of caution and go INT. That seems to be the tact "They" are wanting us to take.

That is what we were told.

Peace

From the NCAA-W portion of Arbiter (and I *thought* this rule was the same):

4. What has NOT changed for the 2010-2011 season.

a. Officials determine what is legal/incidental contact. This type of contact is still not a foul. (Rule 4-40)
b. Officials determine what is illegal/non-incidental contact. This type of contact is still a foul. (Rule 4-40; 4-29.2)
c. A foul caused by a STATIONARY (not moving or swinging) elbow is still a common foul. (4-36.1, .3, .4, .5 and .6; 4-29.2.a)
d. A foul caused by swinging the elbows EXCESSIVELY is still a flagrant foul. (4-36.7; 4- 29.2.c and .f)
e. Officials are permitted to review the monitor to see IF a contact flagrant foul has occurred. When it is determined that a contact flagrant foul did not occur, but an intentional personal or player/substitute technical has occurred, these acts and only these acts can be penalized. (Rule 2-13.2.d)

The key is "above the shoulder" Above the shoulder= Min Intentional

Key is swinging/moving
 

While much of the emphasis has been placed on the above/below the shoulders language I believe the real key is the swinging/moving elbow language as if the elbow is stationary and contact is made to an opponent above the shoulders, a common foul can be called (an intentional may still be called but a common fould can still be called by rule). IF the elbow is swinging/moving AND contact is made above the shoulders then a common foul is no longer an option and the foul called must either be an intentational foul or a flagrant foul (personal of technical depending of the status of the ball).

Why would you believe that when the rules citation saying your belief is false under NCAA Mens rules has already been posted above? :confused:

Or are you referring strictly to NCAA Womens rules?

My apologies I was referring to the women's rules.