Womens D-I
 

I have my first Womens Division I srimmage in a few weeks and am making the switch from high school. Any tips or pointers? Thanks

Stay in your primary.....stay humble and be a good partner.

As lead the 3 in the corner is yours, no b/c count, closely guarded is 3' when holding the ball.
And if the situation dictates you to call out of your PCA, follow the 3 Bs:
Be late
Be needed
Be right

I would also suggest taking a look at the Women's Points of Emphasis for the current season. You'll do the teams a favor if you call the POEs, since it will help prepare them for the regular season.

Do you currently work women's college ball? The women's college game is much different than the men's game and high school. Way too much to know to get all in a post.

I still baffles me why schools or assigners don't get women's college officials to work scrimmages...the players need to know how we are going to call the game and using officials that don't know the women's game isn't helping anyone.

It baffles you? Really? Let me give you a hint. . . $

:)

Women's officials are not as territorial as men's officials...working you secondary and realizing that you may have the best look but may be the farthest away from the call is acceptable in women's hoops. Getting the call right is what is most important.

Money how?

I have already had a scrimmage cancelled (not at the D1 level, obviously) because the school didn't want to pay for the officials.

I have paid and unpaid scrimmage...we need to realize that as professionals we need to get on the court before the season and if that means working one for free than that is what it takes. Don't get me wrong we should be getting paid something in a ideal world.

I think this is one of those myths that women's officials want to claim so they can justify why they are doing Women's ball rather than men's ball. Not true at all. I have worked with D1 guys at the lower college level and never had a problem with calling in my secondary or having them get upset if I or another partner saw something. Actually almost every pre-game I have had at the college level the officials are much easier to work with than high school officials for the reason they put a premium on working as a team. And the very brief time I worked Women's ball to act like there are no egos is silly.

Peace

Give yourself a pat on the back. So do I. But some conferences have a rule that if they scrimmage an interscholastic opponent, they must use a regular paid crew. If they scrimmage intra-squad, then they can get CYO refs for free if they want. And so, rather than pay officials for that "regular" scrimmage, they go intra-squad and get whoever is local and will work for free.

I was going to say this as well, but didn't want to start a fight. I go to a Men's D1 tryout every year (I'll never get in, but I know the assignor from camp and I like him, so I go). Every year, he says "I don't care what your mechanics look like. I don't care if your positioning is off by a few feet. Just do me a favor and get. . . the [bleep]ing. . . call. . . right."

This is one of the things that John Adams is trying to correct and I (respectfully of course ;) ) must disagree with your assignor. But I understand that you must do what your assignor tells you to do.

Adams is trying his best to get all officials "on the same page" and be uniform when it comes to floor work. It is the thinking of your assignor that is detriment of what Adams is attempting to do.

Without trying to make this sound like you don't deserve this, how do you go from HS directly to D-I without going to D-I camps, D-III games, etc?

I think you kind of missed the point of what he was stating. He was just saying that getting it right is expected, not the, "Do not fish in my pond" ideal that many older guys have held onto.

Peace

I've attended several open gyms where there has been a D-I college official or assignor present. They liked me and afterwards came up and asked what I was doing on this date. I said nothing and they said alright you have a scrimmage. So me, the guy who asked, and another guy who are both veterans will be going up and working the womens scrimmage.

No disrespect taken on the statement Bob.

I do not.

Oh? Does John Adams really want us to get the f**king call wrong? :D

Live in SoCal.

If you're not there in 3 years, you're relegated to high school games only. :D

Interesting, one could assume that by this statement you believe those who can't hack it on the Men's side are banished to working womens. I work women's ball by choice sir, mainly because it keeps me away from the very egos you just illustrated by your assumption that NCAA-W are inferior to the men's officials.

Just an observation my friend....

Never lose sight of the fact that positioning mechanics are only best practices, and their purpose is get the official to the best spot to see the play. If John Adams is preaching the gospel of being in the "proper" magic spot on the floor above all else, he is simply wrong. If he is preaching the gospel of being in the right place to see the play even if it isn't the magic spot on the floor, then he is spot on.

And that's what I inferred from Scrappy's assigner's statement...that it's not as important to be standing on some magical spot on the floor as it is to get the call right.

You can take it anyway you like, but most officials that work college ball make a choice of some kind what to pursue. That is especially true in the current camp season.

But a lot of Women's officials seem to want to justify their reasons for working that ball. I should know, as almost every small college game I work I hear a Women's official point out to me or someone (not prompted to make such a comment by anyone as well) and say, "We get the same money as you do." Then look at you like you are making some mistake working a Men's game. Well sorry, but I choose to work Men's basketball because that is what I always wanted to work. I had no desire to work Women's ball and only did when I was asked. When I found out I needed to choose, I went to the Men's side only. You choose what you want to do as we are independent contractors. Some people might not have a choice, but most do. No one can tell you what you want to do when you leave your house. At that includes college basketball.

Peace

You're right many of us do make choices. My choice was to not surround myself with the typical mentality that you are exhibiting; that mentality being that we who work women's ball are inferior to you. You are reminded of the pay in an effort to further remind you that your skill level is the same as mine. Clearly, if Men's officials were so much more skilled than the women's officials whom you choose to impune, then you would be compensated as such. I am only expecting the same respect I give others as a colleague and to not have my hard work, skill level and dedication impuned simply because my players have longer hair than yours....usually ;)

From what I read on these boards a majority of the time it's an NCAA-W staffer who points to differences in mentality and/or philosophy between NCAA-W and NCAA-M. And in this thread in particular.

We're suppose to take your opinion as gospel but label JRut as arrogant for having his own? :rolleyes:

I do not like Women's college basketball. I do not watch it. I did not watch it before I became an official. I did not consider doing Women's or Girl's basketball before I was officiating.

And if you want respect, why do Women's officials feel the need to justify to Men's officials why they are working that level? And if you really want respect tell your fellow Women's officials when I go into the locker room after their game I do not get a lecture as to why they are having an easier time then the crew that is following them is having. And then saying things like “I am getting paid the same you are. WTH???

If you are satisfied with what you are doing, just work and shut up. It is the same with softball umpires that spend all their time trying to tell someone that works baseball that they are crazy for working a game that generally takes longer. I do not work softball because I did not play softball. I enjoy the many aspects of working baseball, which is why I am there instead of on a softball field over 50 times a year. And gender has nothing to do with it, I stopped working slow pitch softball too because I was bored. I work the games I want to work, not the game that gives me the bigger check.

Honestly I could give a damn what others do. If I wanted to work Women's basketball I could pay the same money to go work those games by attending those camps. I choose not to. It has nothing to do with being inferior; it has everything to do with choice. When Men's basketball officials sit around and talk officiating we do not talk about we are missing or why we are there.

I went to a camp to watch a good friend of mine work some games. I was there not as a camper but to watch her work as it was someone I was mentoring. She is a great official and I was interested in her craft. Well I ran into many officials I knew that also attended the camp and you would have thought there was in infomercial to work Women's basketball by all the comments those said to me about, "Come over to the Women's game...blah....blah....blah." If you are confident in what you are doing, why are you trying to tell me what to do? Even in a many conversations we have here many Women's official try to convince everyone that "The Women's mechanic or philosophy is so much better......" But I have the problem with looking down on the Women's game? If you enjoy what you are doing, you do not need to justify that to others who are not working it. That is a big problem with many (not all) Women's officials. It is getting old. Just work your games and go home. Stop trying to convince the rest of us to work those games.

Peace

That's my whole point...just work your games. But don't go on message boards talking about how those of us on the women's side weren't good enough to work on the men's. I said no to the men's just like you said no to women's. I'm not trying to convince you to work anything and nowhere did I say that our way is right and yours is wrong. I am simply tired of the mentality that you are pushing that the only reason there are women's officials is because there has to be a place for those or us that aren't as good as Jrutledge and his crews. We are both necessary for our sports and we deserve the mutual respect from each other not to be talked about as if we are inferior, because I am far from it my friend. ;)

End of rant

This is pretty funny. Officiating men's basketball is much more difficult because the game is a lot faster, period. For those who want to rip, women's officials are very good, but they would have a very tough time throttling up the RPMs during a men's game. Like a rusty NFL quarterback, you have to get used to the speed of the game. The same applies to the differences between levels of college, or between small college and HS or both genders.

For those men's officials that think they are superior, I have some news for you. NCAA-W is way ahead of NCAA-M in terms of being on the cutting edge of officiating philosophies, science, mechanics, and continuous improvement tools. The NBA pours a lot of resources into training and development. NCAA-W pays attention to the NBA, and incorporates a lot of new NBA stuff. It then flows to NCAA-M, and finally, after a long, long time, to the NFHS.

I've never officiated women's basektball, but I respect the heck out of the NCAA-W, their mechanics, and the way they do things. NCAA-M eventually copies them, just several years later.

I was responding to a comment that suggested that there were egos at the Men's level that you do not have at the Women's level. I think I have a right to comment that in my experience that is not true or not any truer than any level of basketball. And in a recent thread there was a comment about how the Women's game handled the "Blarge" so much better and the word "ego" was apart of that discussion.

If you do not like the comments on this board you certainly do not have to read them. And you certainly do not have to read my comments. But I am a little tired of guys like you that are so willing to throw out what you do on the Women's side but then get so offended when those that work Men’s college comments about something. It sounds like you feel what you are doing is inferior. Then again I am not surprised, that is what officials that work Women's basketball seem to feel about that level too. Just saying. ;)

Peace

You do realize that both NCAA Men's and NCAA Women's uses the same system to train their officials? You realize both use video and the same process to share information with their officials? Just because the NCAA-W has adopted some mechanics that the NBA uses, does not mean they are doing the same thing the NBA does to train their officials. Actually the NBA is in a class of their own on that front. They use video and break down tapes that the NCAA Men's and Women's ball has yet to do on that level. It is one thing to say one is better, it is quite another to not know what you are talking about. And it is clear you do not know what you are talking about.

Peace

Gee, I guess that's why NBA officiating on the whole is regarded with such high esteem these days. :D

Personally, I hope it takes a helluva long time for some of those cutting edge NBA philosophies to filter down to the high school level. I really don't want to see high school players taking 4 steps without a whistle or kicking the snot out of an opponent and then whining and pouting like a little baby if someone has the audacity to call them with a foul.

Yup, the NBA certainly has got a lock on officiating philosophies, science, mechanics and continuous improvement tools. That's painfully evident if you are forced to actually watch one of their games from beginning to end. Hell, I'd be happy if I could only figure out whatinthehell a foul actually is in the NBA. But hey, maybe that'll filter down to me in another 50 years or so. I can only hope.

Well I will justify my existence by saying that I don't have to justify my existence. So take THAT!! :D I work NCAA - W and enjoy it. I liked women's basketball before I started and like it even now. Maybe it goes back to college where the Men's and Women's team were real close and supported each other that I never got a "bad taste". It is different than the men's game, not better, not worse just different. There obviously are not the above the rim plays, but there are plays that Men's officials won't have to make b/c we have players who have to use something other than athleticism to accomplish the same tasks men's players do.
As for officials in general, I have friends on both sides. IME, I find that there is more emphasis on coming together as a crew (seen as lack of male organs by some) on the women's side than the mens. There are more than enough egos on the women's side to make life interesting. And enough crappy, promoted before they were ready officials on both sides as well. In short, I just like the women's side more. That doesn't make it better than the men's side, just what I enjoy. I do not begrudge anyone on the men's side for what they do, and if they disparage what I do, they are obviously trying to overcompensate for a lack of something!:cool:

In my neck of the woods, we are scheduled a scrimmage and we are allowed to bring in those HS Officials that are looking to move to NCAA Officiating. Usually, its a small group of them, maybe two or three.

That is how it is here. You know an official or are seen by a college official/assignor and liked then you are invited to attend. For this scrimmage we have 4 guys counting myself.

Is there a rulebook that pertains to Womens NCAA or is it a overall rulebook that contains both genders??

One rule book, but some specific rules apply only to Men or Women

For this scrimmage I would say the most important thing is to learn the NCAA-W coverage areas/mechanics and make sure you get those calls in your primary. Your crew chief will make sure everyone is applying all the rules correctly.

I concur.....

The NCAA rule book is available as a free download and it has a pretty good rules differences chart in the back that covers the significant rules diffs not only between HS and NCAA, but also between NCAA-M and NCAA-W. I find it to be much more useful than the one in the back of the NFHS book.

J Rut - I usually agree with you but.................
 

I have to agree with Oracle on this one. There is a mentality especially in the NE that says you stay in your pond and I'll stay in in mine. I have a friend who is young and successful in the Women's DI game and he tells me all the time about how he thinks there is more commraderie in the women's game than the men's. There is no doubt that the men's game is more physical than the NBA because we don't call ABSOLUTES like they do in NCAA - W and the NBA.

I love being on the men's side and would never give it up, but I think that John Adams really wants to speed things up regarding our adoption of NBA philosphies.........

What philosophy that is used that the NCAA Men's do not use? Reporting with two hands? Giving a "hit to the head" signal? That is the NBA philosophies you are talking about? Because you realize that the NCAA-M tape has been talking about Absolutes for a couple of years now? I used to attend NCAA-W camps and I never saw that concept on any tape when Marcy Weston was the coordinator or in the early years of Mary Struckoff.

And the camaraderie thing is very subjective. The vast majority of officials on the Men's side have been very helpful and very friendly. I have had the privilege to work with many guys that work the D1 level and they have treated me and others as equals on the floor. They know their role and that they are going to be looked to and they have been nothing but helpful. And I expect more egos at that level as there are more officials that have accomplished something. All I see on the Women's side is the same two or three working the big time games no matter where those games are in the country.
And when I go to camps and I deal with guys all over the country, those are good people. To act like Women's side as fewer egos is silly. I used to be in the room with some heavy hitters were at the NCAA clinics and those were people that felt unapproachable. I have not felt the same in the room with guys we have talked about here.

Peace

Oh? That's different than what some very highly respected officials(by me anyway) in that area have told me. The general consensus was that you could...and should... call out of your area if you saw a whale. You never should do so if you saw a minnow though. And that philosophy in my experience is pretty much standard across the country from officials in both the Mens and Womens sides.

I don't think that you can ever come up with a "one size fits all philosophy. The game is too fluid for that.

JRUT, I will agree with you on a few things. The first being that you do seem to see the same officials working the Big Games. However, since they mostly seem to come from the region I am in, I can say "I knew them when!!!":D But you also see, at least here in ACC country, and if memory serves the same was true in Big 10 country, the same officials working the men's side as well. Which begs the question, if these coaches are seeing the same officials alot during the season, how can they complain that the officials are inconsistent? ANYWHO...Yes, we have some ego's on the women's side. However, this is where men and women are different in their personality. It PROBABLY gets more 'catty' on this side than on the men's. And on the mens side you probably have more people trying to 'mark their space" That is just a general difference between men and women in general.
Also, we STILL go table side when calling fouls. We aren't big chickens and try to hide on the other side of the court and let our partners take the earful!!:D

Gotta agree with this part.

Not the same. I guy that works in the Big Ten is not likely to work in the ACC. A guy working in the Big East is not likely to work in the Big 12. Yes you see some of the same officials, but you see many more guys working in different regions. I can turn on the UConn-Tennessee game (I know they do not play anymore) and I can see the same official. Then when UConn plays Duke, the same official. then when Tennessee plays Rutgers, the same official. As much as people like to rag on guys like Steve Welmer or Hightower, they are not working in all those conferences and has their best game. More officials and apparently more guys are trusted to work on national TV.


Any profession when you have successful people working together you are going to have clashes. I have never tried to say that there are not people that do not like each other. But to suggest that it is much more on the Men's side is kind of silly. I know a few people that work on the D1-W side and I can tell you stories about things that have circulated about officials not liking each other. Of course I am not going to do that, but some of the situations are much more drama than what happens on the Men's side. For one you have both women and men working together with all kinds of cliques involved. You do not have that on the Men's side. And I have personally worked with a lot of D1 guys on games and they have been extremely nice and they hardly ever make you feel like you do not belong.

The reason that was changed is that there were too many unnecessary conversations. It does not make much difference anyway, you still can say things to them. I could make a joke here but I will not. ;)

Peace

Easy Rut....stay in your primary.......

Rut is going to take all the double whistles to the table !!!!!!!

Can't believe I am debating J - Rut !!!!!!!!! I need a drink !!!!!
 

Rut -

Just hear me out or go to a Big East game !!!!!!

Do you really think that some of the "Heavy Hitters" ( I freakin hate that term) in the Big East (Burr / Higgins / Kitts ) really identify with what J. Adams
is preachin. They are more of the Hank Nichols approach of adv/dis.

From where I am, I am tellin you that down in the Va / Carolina's they have bought
into the NBA / NCAA - W approach and in the NE it is, "Get up you aren't bleedin yet"

I know someone that works for both Larry Rose and Joe Forte and he says he

works two completely different ways for their "systems".

Don't get me wrong there are a lot of team players on the guy's side, yes you are right, I just think the ego's on our side at times can be detrimental
to our comraderie.

Ask yourself how many NCAA Tournament games have these individuals worked in the past couple of years? That should be your answer.

Well that is where you live. I live in the Midwest and John Adams was the assignor of a D2 conference and supervisor of the Horizon League at the D1 level (he also assigned a D3 league). You know where Adams stands on these things, well who I worked for took a similar stance.

What does that have to do with Men's basketball? That seems like that has to do with those individuals and what they assign. The only thing maybe you could say is that Patty Broderick has more conferences and more power to decide what people do at the lower level and high level that she assigns. I know an assignor in my area that cannot stand another assignor and if you work for one guy, you likely do not work at all for the other. They both openly talk about how they do not like each other and if you try to work for both and you have game conflicts, the other will reduce your schedule or will not allow you to move up to the next level to get off their game.

To act like people do not work for different people and have to adhere to different standards is not entirely true.

The thing I hear people say that they get from the NBA is really their mechanics. Just because you report with two hands and have a similar coverage area does not mean you are trained the same. That is the most laughable part of this, because I have watched people at a NCAA-W camp and I did not see anything drastically similar that the NBA does. I have said this before; there is an NBA Evaluator/former NBA Official in my association. When he was at a college camp I attended out of state and when he did a film review for our association (which he is a Hall of Famer), I did not hear the same concepts coming from anyone else at any college camp I have ever attended.


Maybe that is an area issue, not an NCAA level issue. I will say this again, I am fortunately to work in a league where I work with a D1 guy every other game. And when you go to the camp to get in one of my leagues, the same guys I see all the time. Those guys are nothing but helpful and treat a lot of us who are not on their level like equals. Of course they know who they are, but they have befriended many of us not on that level and help us get other opportunities. And I also know personally many D1-W officials and to act like there are not egos and factions that like and do not like each other is silly. There are many on that side that fight with each other and talk about the other behind their back (just like they do on the Men's side). The situations I have heard on the Women's side do not compare with the issues I hear about on the Men's side. And those situations on the Men's side are often about professional differences, not personal differences. ;)

Peace

Rut, we agree. You actually made some of my points. You are much more likely to hear backstabbing and gossip on the women's side than on the Mens side. On the Men's side you will hear more 'This si the way I think it should be done so FU if you think otherwise". Granted that this is a 'generalization' but fairly accurate and neither is exactly flattering for either side. I make no claim, no think one can be made, that either side is "better" then the other. I will say that they are different and fit some personalities better than others.
As for the "Big Games" you may be right, I know alot of officials work for multiple "Big Time" conferences. Several work for the ACC AND Big East or the SEC and ACC. Since that is where most of the top 25 teams reside (Duke, Carolina, Maryland, UConn, Rutgers, ND, Tennessee, LSU, UVa, just to name a few) then you probably will see the same officials on each game. I do not know if the same cross Big Time conference is the same or not. It also has to do with a type of parity on the Men's side. For instance, the WVU / Uconn Men's game should be more competitive then the WVU / UConn women's game. But that is another topic
And face it, you are just jealous we can still use both hands to report because it looks so darn cool!!

Actually the Men's side can do that to. But you will never see me do it. It looks stupid.

Peace

My guess is that it will be the required mechanic on the Men's side within 5 years.

Wow, you are very anal towards NCAA-W Basketball. The last time I checked, the pay was the same and we even now we have dunking in our game. With your attitude/opinions, I am suprised you made it out of JV basketball......

It only looks stupid to those who do not have the advanced motor and cognitive skilles to use both hands at once!:D

Thank you for proving my point BTW. I did not ask you what you were paid. Nor do I care what you are paid. I can tell you that I have yet to meet an official on the Men's side that cares what they are paid compared to Women's basketball. One of the reasons they are not there.

And the funniest comment of all was the JV comment. Thank you for the laugh.

Peace

I dont see the point that was proven and I wasn't talking about what I was getting paid at all. It was a general statement. I see you just pull out the things your can feast on. All I am saying is that discrediting the way things are done on the womens side is not good business. We are all Officials and we can learn from each other.

Peace.

You obviously did not read what I said earlier. Then you said the very thing why Women's NCAA Officials like to say often, which seems like a justification for doing that level as if they do not want to. Worked with a guy this weekend that made it clear he does not want to work that level and made a similar comment.

Take a chill pill. I think anyone can question, comment or evaluate the way anyone does something and especially if that applies to the NCAA Men's or Women's side, NBA and even the NF. Give me a break if you think people here cannot comment because it hurts your feelings. There are things the NBA does I would never want our levels to do. Does that mean I cannot do that either because you say so? And I have not only worked NCAA Women's ball and I have seen it done for years. I do not have to accept something just because they do it or where they claim they pull the ideas from. Also the rules and the way the games are played are different, the mechanics should reflect those differences.

Peace

Debating Rut is like watching MSNBC !!!!!!!! Both Painful!!!!
 

Rut -

For the longest time I was in your camp, now I am starting to change a bit.

I am all for most NBA philosophies, I just think we need to LOOK like college

officialswhile we are officiating What in your opinion are some of the things

they do in the NBA that you hope we (NCAA - M) never do???

Hey Rut are you going to have a new Senator in Illinois tonight ?????

Can you throw in a period somewhere?
 

Whether you are in my "camp" is up to you. And if you have not noticed I am not debating you. Just stating my opinion. Either accept it or get over it.

The NBA game is different and they have different rules. Why would we want to use the same mechanics and the games are not played the same way?

Peace