Closely Guarded Post Player
 

need some help in a debate I am having with a regular partner of mine. Ball goes into a post player who has his back to the basket and is dribbling trying to decide what move to make and how the defender is reacting. Does the closely guarded count apply?

I say no because the rule book talks about the count ending once the dribbler gets his head/shoulders past the defender - implying that closely guarded occurs when opponents are facing each other. And I have never seen a visible count done in this situation by anyone I have watched or worked with.

My "debater" says that isn't true as the book never says they have to face each other.

So, experts, what is the correct application?

Your "debater" has the rule right.

Imagine the same positioning, only 19 feet from the basket. Do you have a count?

They mean when the offensive player drives past the defender.

Even the NBA has a closely guarded count in this situation.

Perhaps part of the confusion lies with the fact that, according to Fed. mechanics, the L does not show a visible count in these situations, even though the players are entirely within the L's area of coverage. And, since no one is counting, there would never be a 5-second call made by the L.

Even in 2-whistle??? The Trail is supposed to watch all the off-ball stuff AND get the closely guarded count in the Lead's primary?

Where is this documented?

I've been wrong before, but the only count by anyone that isn't visible is the 3 second count

That is what I've been told, many times, by many different officials, including clinician-certified State Final officials.

I happen to disagree with the mechanic. I have asked these officials, many times, why it is necessary to have 2 sets of eyes on-ball (L, and the C or T with the count), but no one can tell me why it's acceptable in this instance.

I believe the issue was how the Fed. Mechanics Manual was written. I don't have it in front of me, but I think somewhere in there it says the T and/or C are responsible for the 5-second closely-guarded counts, which many have taken to imply the L would then never have that count.

Again, I don't agree with that philosophy, but when in Rome...

I agree that the strict language of the rule would indicate that the CG count should apply, but like the earlier comments, I have never seen anyone give a visible count in that instance. And though it isn't like the post player holds the ball or dribbles that long without doing something, it does happen. With no count begin given during this, it would be interesting to suddenly come up calling the violation and have to explain why you weren't signalling.

This reasoning is much different than your OP. :D

I would think the C would have a count, but since most often this post-up is in the lane, 3 secs. come before 5.

So we've got the L looking for a foul, the C looking for a 5 second count and the T looking for traveling...all on the same post up? Yikes!

Can you imagine the C coming across the court for a 5 second call on a post player standing three feet from the L? Talk about fireworks.

The NFHS manual very clearly says that the official that has primary coverage is responsible for the five second count. See page 61, section 3.3.2 B. This includes the lead official.

If you have your own manual that says otherwise, fine. Most time when someone says this, they either work NCAAM or just mirror what they see in NCAAM games on TV.

Well, M&M does work in Illinois; that could be a major factor here. :D

Didn't NFHS have a POE in the recent past stating the lead should have a visible closely guarded count when applicablie? How's a head coach suppose to know that an official has a count and how far along in the count before a violation?

As far as the OP's post goes, most definitely the closely guarded count does apply here. I've never gotten to five but had some counts get close.

Exactly. I know it's been said before, but if all three officials are on-ball, who is watching the other 8? The very notion of the C or T having the count on a post up in front of the lead boggles my (admittedly very tiny) mind.

Ok, cool - maybe this is a change from past manuals. I know I have been told in the past, at several different HS camps, by several different higher-level officials, that the L never has a 5-sec. count. I may have to ask these same officials if they've changed their thinking, or if they are simply stubborn. Like a few people on here... :D

I know in NCAA-W the L most definitely is responsible for the 5-sec. count. It makes the most sense, given the responses above - if there are 2 (or 3?!?) sets of eyes on the ball, who has the rest of the players? :eek:

My purpose in pointing this out was in reference to the OP - there may be other officials that carry that same idea, and that may be why Fritz had not noticed the L count before.

Well, if I find that IL manual, I know where I'll put it... :eek:

Oh, and shut up. :D

Maybe it is just me, and I wouldn't be suprised if it was, but has anyone called a 5 second violation on a player on the low block? I can see a high post 5 second call but a low post one? If a player holds for 4 seconds, dribbles for 4 seconds and then holds for 4 that is a lot of time in the post. Not thinking of anytime I would have called this, but again, it might be just me.
As per the OP, the T could have this call in NCAA W. Although, Id fill it under ," I'll call it, you explain it"! LOL

The primary has the count in NCAAW, unless that's changed recently.

The place where it's important, IMO, is when the post player gets trapped right about the time the official would've been at 3 or so. Too late to start a fresh count then, but a 5-second call is just as valid there as anywhere else on the court.

Just an FYI, a back-to-basket count only applies when a player dribbling the ball has his back or side to the basket below the free throw line extended and ends when the dribble is picked up, ball is deflected by the defense, or the player faces the basket/dribbles above the free throw line extended. So it's not exactly like the NFHS/NCAA-M closely guarded rule.

It changed a few years ago. If ball goes below FT line extended (roughly) L picks it up and T takes the post action. So if a pass went from the baseline 3 to the low post the L would have the matchup at the 3 pt. area and T would have post action.
Not saying it can't happen, just having a difficult time imagining it happening or someone callling it. Although a trap after the post player killed their dribble would be the most obvious choice.

And that's exactly why I said that the NBA has a 5-second count "in this situation". From the original post:

yeah, I didn't explain myself very well. I agree with what the rule language says but since I have never seen it called by any of the veteran officials I've worked with or watched, I figured there must be a reason. When I have asked, they always responded that the interpretation was it only applied to face-to-face guarding (hence the head/shoulders comment).

Enjoying all the subsequent comments. But could see an interesting scenario crop up - - - L starts giving the 5-second visible count while the post player is actually in the lane trying to decide what to do (don't the mechanics say we supposed to start our visible count immediately?) and then coaches/fans/players think we are now doing a visible 3-second count.............:eek: