I was just informed that in Western MA, boys will play on Tuesday and Friday nights during the first 4-6 weeks of the season, and the girls will play on the "lesser" nights. Then for the remaining 4-6 week, girls' teams will play on Tuesday and Friday nights, and the boys will play on the "lesser" nights.

Is it just me, or is this just getting downright stupid? :confused: Would it be ok if we just made boys' basketball a Fall sport?

Chuck

There are better ways
 

Stupid - Yup, I agree. In my daugter's high school in Maryland, the girls teams and boys team almost always playing the same opposing school. One would play at home, and the other would travel. Seemed to work.

In Texas we used to play girls on Monday Thursday, and boys on Tuesday Friday. Then that do-gooder Ross Perot got involved and got the laws in the state changed to where a team can only play on one school night (M,Tu,W,Th) a week.

This was the start of the real crisis for having enough quality officials in the state, for any sport.

No one shows up.
 

There are some conferences in the Chicagoland area that have the girls and boys playing on the same night for varsity games. The girls play at 6:00(same time as the JV Boys was before) and the boys at 7:30.

Nobody shows up for the girl's game, everyone shows up for the boy's game. I guess that is what they call equality.

Peace

Re: No one shows up.
 

I can see why that way is not always a good idea, but that's not what CYO Butch was suggesting. He was suggesting that School A Boys go to School B, while the School B girls go to School A. Both games can be played at the "prime" 7:30 time slot and each will have a full school worth of fans to draw from. This is how it was done here last season, I think. But I guess it was still not good enough for the more militant groups.

Chuck

Re: Re: No one shows up.
 

This shows the contradiction in the law or the rulings. Girl's and Boy's games were always (and still are in most places) played on seperate nights. A lawsuit was filed to have the girls play on every Friday and the same Saturdays as the Boys. Obviously they are not going to play at the same time with the way these two conferences changed it, but they I guess playing on the same night makes them happy.

I agree with equal accomidations and equal access, I just do not understand what it is going to accomplish by playing on the same nights. Not all officials are going to want to do varsity games at 6:00 (especially on a week day), no matter what level.

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on Oct 7th, 2002 at 02:08 PM]

We're still waiting for Michigan high schools to determine on what nights to play girls and boys basketball, assuming the MHSAA loses its appeal in court. It looks like we'll have one more year of girls bb in the fall. Too bad. The girls got a lot more attention, from college coaches, from officials, from classmates, and from the media, than they will when they have to compete with boys.

Personally, I hope we end up with varsity doubleheaders, because I'm willing to spend 2 evenings a week away from my family, but not 4.

Here we play most of our games (all the league games plus a couple of others) on the same nights as the boys' team. If we are home, they are away. This is almost necessary due to the amount of available gym space. On a typical day, the JH teams use the two gyms (HS and JH) after school, and the HS teams use them in the evening. On non-game days, one of us practices 5-7 and the other 7-9. On the occasions where our boys' team is home but we are practicing, we are shuffled off to the less-than-suitable JH gym for a 5-7 practice. This only happens about two or three times a year (plus one or two more for Wednesday night home wrestling matches) so it's bearable. But if we played Mon/Thur and they played Tue/Fri, home on average one of those two games, we'd each be stuck in the JH once per week.

Also, I agree that it's unfair to give the girls' teams no weekend nights. If you have the gym space to go different nights for each gender, what's wrong with swapping halfway through the season? We get much better crowds for our Friday night games than we do for Tuesdays. If we had no Fridays we'd have fewer fans than we already do.

I agree many of the moves made to promote equality are going too far (like when existing men's collegiate sports are eliminated to balance the scale at a lesser cost than adding women's sports), but swapping halfway through seems awfully reasonable to me.

Re: Re: No one shows up.
 

I dunno.

Where I grew up, we did this A girls at B girls and B boys at A boys.

Basically, all of the fans for both teams would be at the boys game at school A.

In northern Virginia, we usually have a 4:00 freshman, 5:30 JV, and 7:30 varsity game. All 3 school A girls are at school B and vice versa for the boys. In a couple of districts, we sometimes have varsity double-header and sometimes it is boys first and girls second and the next time it might be reversed. The rationale for having the boys play first was that not many people came for the early girls game. If the boys play first, the fans are more likely to stay for the girls game -- at least for a good portion of it. Seems to work for us.

Yo, Stan !
 

Stan,
Welcome!
Glad you found your way to this forum.
Attaboy!

In Michigan Track & Field, the boys and girls alternate for the full year with repect to who performs in an event first.
I see nothing wrong with a similar scenario in hoops.
mick

Here in my little corner of WA State, we do the Mon-Thurs and Tues-Fri schedule with the switch halfway through the season...we have done it for at least 5 years...each season alternates as to who (boys or girls) get the Friday nights the first half of the season...I feel sorry for the AD's who have to figure out the schedules, but it has certainly not hurt any programs...on the contrary, all the coaches I have talked with like it, and both boys and girls programs get equal exposure!!!

The Portland (OR) area has tried lots of different schemes over the years and none of them are completely satisfactory. You can't please all the people (including parents, coaches, and fans) all the time.

I can't believe that people actually get upset about this sort of thing. In my (humble) opinion this is political correctness gone crazy, the game should be about playing (and maybe winning) not about the size of the crowd.

Oz, were you in debate class in high school? I'm wondering if that's where you learned this technique of introducing another un-related topic to distract attention from the point being made. As a high school coach, let me tell you that I am fully capable of concerning myself with what's fair to my team and also preparing them to the best of my ability for playing (and maybe winning :-). I think there are a lot of ridiculous PC things going on in the world, but this isn't one of them. Forget the standpoint of crowd size. Why would it be fair to have 100% of the girls' games be on school nights (sometimes our buses get back after 11:00 PM), and only 50% of the boys' games, especially when it is so easy to fix like Western Massachusetts just did?

I may be wrong, but it doesn't seem to me that the issue has ever been about getting home late. I never read comments from people bringing Title IX litigation about their daughters getting home at 11:00 more often than the boys. The issue is always crowd size, exposure to college coaches and the prestige of playing on the "prime" basketball nights. Always.

If getting home late was the problem, they could simply start the games earlier. Yes, that would make logistical problems, but it could be done without too much difficulty.

Just my opinion.

Chuck

Not true.
 

Chuck you love to tell me how wrong I am, well you are wrong. ;) This is the reason that the Upstate 8 Conferecence in Illinois changed things. I do not know of every issue, but this was a major issue with the Elgin School District that was sued by parants of girls participants and made the conference change its policy. This lawsuit was largely based on girls not playing on weekends and playing on school nights (I am sure there were more issues at stake, but that is what the obvious change was). The boy's games were mainly held on the weekends and almost all the girl's game were held on weekdays. I really do not see what anyone can do about crowd size. You either are going to get the support or you are not. I guess the playing night was in issue for someone.

Peace

Which could be done with less difficulty? Switching nights halfway through the season, or asking parents/friends/coaches/officials to juggle their schedules even more to accomodate your plan?

A problem that was discussed at the officials' interpretation meeting before last season (the one all us coaches are required to attend in this area) was that officials were having trouble getting from a junior high varsity assignment to a high school JV assignment in time. See, the JH V (9th & 8th) and JH JV (8th & 7th) play at 4:00. The game would sometimes end around 5:30. Then the official would have to be somewhere else for a 6:30 JV tip. (In our 24-team league, the HS schedule is broken down by school size, but the JH schedule is broken down by proximity, so very rarely are the JH games in coordination with the HS games.) If that 6:30 JV tip became 5:30 or 6:00, we'd need 20-40 more officials. And that is a serious problem in our area.

And back to the crowd size issue. We've had one Friday night game each of the past two years during non-league play, when our boys' team happened to be off. The result was all the fans of both teams turning out, along with the boys' team themselves. Both games were our most well-attended games in those seasons. And both were narrow victories, perhaps aided by an improved home-court advantage. What's wrong with wanting that?

http://home.dejazzd.com/weaverc/2001/001215ov.html

http://home.dejazzd.com/weaverc/2002/011214tulp.html

First of all, I am very willing to admit that I could be wrong on this. I am giving my impressions, which admittedly come from outside the main debate. If I have to be wrong, Jeff might as well get some satisfaction out of it!! :D

Secondly, it's not "my" plan. I couldn't care less how they do it. I just think the broo-ha-ha over "They get Friday nights; we want Friday nights too" is silly if it's only b/c Friday is perceived as a "prime" night to get better visibility for the program. You want better visibility, start winning and guess what? Monday and Wednesday will become the prime nights. If that's truly not the reason (as seems to be the case in Jeff's example), then it's not as silly and I admit that. But as I said, in my experience, from what I read in my local papers, late nights is generally not what the debate is about.

Thirdly, I honestly don't think it would be that hard to schedule games an hour earlier so teams could be home by 10 instead of at 11. If PA passed a law today saying that no HS athletic contest could begin after 6:30 pm on a school night, the AD's and officials' boards would figure it out. It might cause some headaches, but if it's really about getting the kids into bed at 10, they'd figure it out. Or if that's too hard, make the games on Friday nights and Sunday afternoons. That way nobody's out late on school nights.


There's nothing wrong with wanting a full gym. Who said there was? But I do think that there is something wrong with requiring girls and boys to play during the same season and then requiring an exact split of the "prime" nights. It just seems so low on the list of what should be the priorities of HS athletics. It's a little ridiculous to me.

My personal solution would be to have separate seasons. Let the girls have winter basketball, since they've gone to court to get it. The boys could play in the Fall. That way everyone can have fewer late school nights. If that's not good enough, you could even rotate the seasons. In even numbered years, boys play in the Fall and girls play in the winter. In odd numbered years, boys play in the winter and girls play in the Fall.

Chuck

Maybe you want this debate to end by now, but I think it's an interesting one. First, the reason it ends up in court (and the reason the courts end up ruling in favor of these types of requirements) is because very little is done by most ADs to provide a bit of fairness. At our school, where the AD makes the effort, 12 of 20 boys' varsity soccer games start after 6 PM (under the lights), while 4 of 20 girls' varsity soccer games start after 6 PM (this is a much better balance than at many schools). Does the school's tax collecting group hit parents of boys with an electricity surcharge? Of course not. So why aren't things equal? Well, it's just the way things have always been done. And will continue to be until people in a position to change it do so, willingly or by court order.

Although it properly is low on the list of priorities, why can't this be taken care of at the same time as things higher on the list? Do we have to all agree on a list and work on them one at a time, in order?

Oh, and the day boys' high school basketball is played in the fall season won't be until after the day high school football is outlawed by the Supreme Court. :D

I actually agree with you.
 

Chuck,

I actually agree with you on most of what you say. I am a big proponent of girls and boys playing on separate nights. It has nothing to do with equality when people in general do not care about your sport. People watch the NBA, not the WNBA. People watch the Men's NCAA Final Four, not the Women's NCAA Final Four. Officials dream of doing the Men's Final Four, not necessarily the Women's Final Four. If people enjoyed the Girl's and Women's game as much, then the ratings, attentance and the attention would be on the Women's side. Just look at the Tennis Tour. The Women get all the attention and I guess any none tennis fan could probably name 5 players on the WTA. I know I could not answer 5 on the Men's Tennis Tour. And I also know that I cannot name 5 WNBA All-Stars.

My point is, just because you build it does not mean they will come. Just because you make it availible, does not mean they will come either. I live near a town that has the Cubs and the White Sox, people go to the Cubs and no one goes to the White Sox, no matter where the both teams are playing or where they are playing. The only time I have ever seen where Girl's teams get the attendance is when they win. When they win, they come. When they lose or are average, they do not.

Just an opinion.

Peace

Penn. Coach Question.
 

Does your Soccer teams play during the same seasons?

In Illinois Girl's volleyball is played in the fall, Boy's Volleyball is played in the spring. Boy's Soccer is played in the fall, Girl's Soccer is played in the spring. The only sports I can think of that play in the same season is Basketball and Track. Of course track never has a problem, the meets are the same of course.

Peace

Re: Penn. Coach Question.
 

Boys' soccer is a fall sport in PA. Most of PA (2/3?) plays girls' soccer in the fall. In our area, they still have it in the spring. The state actually runs two separate seasons and crowns champs for both. However, I heard that either next year or 2004-05 they are moving it to the fall statewide. Then it will be just like bball--who gets the Friday night under the lights?

Oh BTW, I think the reason it took a little while to move to the fall was the popularity (and similarity) of girls' field hockey. Here in the Northeast, field hockey might be the #2 girls' sport behind basketball. And many girls play both sports, but will have to choose between them in the next year or two.

OK, you taught me something - I had never heard anyone mention the "getting home late" arguement, only people refering to exposure/crowd size. But then again, since I am in Australia I have not been exposed to this issue much (it has NEVER been raised in Australia to my knowledge).

Even at a professional level, the women's games are held before the men's, at the smae venue. So the Sydney Flames (women's team) might play the Townsville Fire on Friday night, with the game tipping off at 6pm. Then the Sydney Kings play the Townsville Crocs tipping off at 8pm.

Obviously the men get a much better crowd than the women. But it is simply a fact (at least in Oz) that men's basketball draws more spectators than women's, so it makes sense to schedule the games this way.

I agree that at high school level, girls (or boys) should not be disadvantaged because of the timing of their games. I like the solution posted here - Team A boys play Team B at home, and at the same time Team B girls play Team A at home - IMHO the perfect compromise. Anyway, I just find it sad that this is an issue that has required legislation to overcome.

Re: Re: Penn. Coach Question.
 

In Virginia, we play soccer in the spring (both sexes). In Maryland, soccer is played in the fall. Boys basketball is played in the winter in both states and I believe Maryland girls play winter ball. This is the last year that girls at A & AA schools in Virginia play fall ball. Should be interesting next year when everybody is scrambling for gym space.

In Michigan it looks like in a couple of years basketball for both girls and boys will be played at the sametime as well. I personally do not neccessarly have a problem with that, but I think the will be major problems with obtaining quality officiating crews though.

Boys basketball is played in the winter because football and baseball are played outdoors and, in much of the country, cannot be played in the winter. Basketball historically filled the time when boys weren't playing the other two sports. I am not aware of any outdoor fall sport for girls with participation comparable to football. For that reason, I don't know of a good reason why girls basketball cannot be played in the fall.

To me, the main goals of scheduling of girls basketball (or any other high school sport) should be to (1) increase participation (both at the varsity and sub-varsity levels), and (2) to avoid game times or practice times that might interfere with a student's ability to perform well in the classroom (such as late nights or early mornings). The rest is secondary. Making sure that girls and boys have equal access to Friday night falls within the second goal.

In Michigan, girls now play on Tue. and Thurs. nights in the fall. They play on Thursday instead of Friday to avoid conflicts with football. Tradition and $$$ keep football on Fridays.

Stan the Man.....
 

I totally agree with you. I am not an advocate of fall ball for girls (It would limit the officials availible in my state IMHO), but I do think they should play on separate nights. If people want girls to play on the weekend, I personally do not see the problem with that at all. But understand that not everyone is going to support girl's basketball the same. It is just a fact right now. Maybe in the future that will change, but right now that is not the case in most situations.

Peace

I do agree that you can't make <i> everything </i> equal. But a judge's (or A.D. or whoever is held accountable) job is to enforce the letter of the law as much as possible.

Basketball is a traditionally winter sport for the most part and a 7:30 or 8:00 PM start on a Friday night is the ideal time for a game. If you were a judge and interpreted the ruling to mean that you needed to treat girls ball and boys ball equally, I can see where you might feel a need to split those "prime times" right down the middle.

In our area, I've seen great attendance for the girls games and the boys games when they do a 6 PM/8 PM varsity double-header. The game that draws the most attendance is usually directly proportional to which program (boys or girls) is fielding a winning team that year. I'd guess that 60% of the audience sticks around for both games regardless.

Z

I personally like the way many small schools in our area do there tuesday/friday night games. 5:00 JV (boys or girls depending on participation usually boys) 6:00 Girls Varsity, 7:30 Boys Varsity. We get three officials and each gets two games.

Illinois would have some problems.
 

Well Z, that would be almost impossible. The girls start a week early. Their playoffs are two weeks before the boy's. They play in completely separate Thanksgiving and Christmas Tournaments. The powers in girl's basketball are different than the powers in boy's basketball. So because of that last fact, they do now want to play the same non-conference opponents. And the Chicago Public League would have to do everything different. Their conference structure is based on the success of each program (move up and down of divisions depending on success or failure of teams). We have over 700 schools throughout the state. It might be difficult to get everyone on the same page.

But that is how I see it.

Peace

<i> Well Z, that would be almost impossible.</i>

Huh? All I said is that a judge is to enforce the letter of the law <b> as much as possible.</b> When we say that judges or A.D.'s (or whoever) are making "stupid, ridiculous" decisons (and all that), we were quite possibly being as ignorant as the fans who yell at us even though they don't know the rules. They are just trying to carry out a decision that someone else made.

I just don't get myself all worked up over people in power trying to make things as equal as they can.

Z

One final amusing thought from Australia - we have recently been making changes to the scheduling of games in our Junior (under 22yrs) and Senior (open age) competitions. We have found that basically no-one wants to play on Friday evenings - since this is the "social" night of the week.:D

You take this conversation waaaayyyyy toooo seriously.
 

I do not see anyone getting worked up. I personally do not care either way. My point is that playing on the same night is not going to make accomidations better or make everyone happy. Because just like a Thanksgiving Tournament, when people see the game they want to see, they will leave. If they call that equality, then it is equality. Not going to affect what I do.

Peace