Legally Equipped? Why Do We Ask?
 

Coach says "yes" to the "legally equipped question."

Right before tip we notice that the girl getting ready to jump has a metal pin in her hair to keep her ponytail in place. She's not legally equipped.

We seem to always just tell her to take it out and go on.

Why do we ask the question ? Is it to protect ourselves somehow if there's a problem?

Yes.

Absofreakinglutely. If we don't, in this litigious society, we start a game, some girl's earring rips out, and we get sued because we didn't make her take it out.

We ask the coaches - and THEY are liable, not us.

I have asked before, and apparently there is no definitive answer here. Are we indeed liable in the first place, (I don't see how) and how would asking this question make us less liable?

"Anybody can sue anybody for anything."


Judge Wapner

How many coaches really have a full understanding of the rules that they should have?

I had a situation last year where after both coaches were asked if legally equipped and the game had been going on for a quarter & a half, a sub came to the table with metal bobbie pins in her hair. I buzzed at the next dead ball (as a courtesy) to notify the floor officials of the player & the coach had a fit cause of my noticing the violation. All the coach did was sit her back down & put athletic tape over every single bobbie pin.

She's not coming back in my game that way.....

For clarification, it was a C-Squad game & the coach just seemed to be there for the bonus money in the paycheck.

The floor officials conferenced & looked her over before she was allowed in.

As has been stated before, the floor officials have final say so I stood by their judgment to allow her to play with the bobbie pins covered with athletic tape.

Some of the bobbie pins were removed.

Wrong as those officials were and I'm probably beating a dead horse here but...

When would you ever have any say?

I'll stir the pot a little bit. It was decided last year by the Iowa Girl's Athletic Union that bobbie pins less than 4 inches are legal. Big mistake in my opinion but for girls basketball we allow it

-Josh

The coach in question probably understood that it was not your place to point it out, even if she had a hand grenade penned on her head.

This is probably NOT a controlling legal standard. While it is very unlikely for an official to be sued, and even more unlikely (depending on the state) for an official to be held liable for a player's injury due to illegal equipment worn by another player, asking the coach has nothing to do with it. You are negligent if you breach a duty (or standard of care) you owe to someone else and that breach proximately causes harm to that person. Assuming you owe the players a duty -- and I'm not sure you do, but if you do (state specific) its more narrow than many assume -- you're still likely going to breach that duty if you take the coach's word for it and ignore other, reasonable measures to determine if a player has illegal equipment. Further, the player isn't going to sue the coach; if you cross claim him, you now have the burden to show he or she bears responsibility, and all I can say is, good luck. They can always say they were mistaken, plus, you get into all sorts of legal issues regarding what duty he or she owes a player of the opposing team.

It can be a huge mess, but the statement listed above is not just too simplistic, it is legally incorrect. I caution non-lawyers against making definitive legal statements.

So what you're saying is that even though the timer, scorer, & shot clock are part of the officiating crew, I should of let the player go in & chance that someone would get injured by her or her coach's stupidity?

The floor officials did thank me for seeing that, & were appreciative.

They also reminded the coach that she needed to check for that at all times, not just let the players do what they wanted

Yes. It's not in your area of responsibility. Timers keep time, scorers keep score and shot clock runs the shot clock.

So what would happen if a parent or other spectator mentions to you about a player being in the game with an illegal item? Are you going to tell them the same thing? "It's none of your concern, just watch the game"

Being my background in security/crowd control, I care about the safety of those on the court (players & floor officials). Technically, (as I've said what seems like a million times) the table crew is supposed to be concerned about the safety of those on the court as they are part of the officiating crew.

Show me documentation otherwise that says that the table crew are not part of the officiating crew then your argument MIGHT stand a chance.

First of all I would not be having a conversation with a parent during a game that would extend to that kind of issue. If you were an actual official you would know that is a no-no.

Technically no they are not. Not as a table person because there is nothing in the rules that gives you that authority. You are considered an official but your duties are well defined. You do not deal with those issues despite what you think those duties are.

Better question is read the rules on the duties of the scorer and timer. Then tell us where it says you have the ability to prevent someone from playing in the game because you think there is a safety issue?

Peace

1) I wouldn't even say that to them. I pay no attention to what comes from the stands.

2) Have you ever read 2-11 or 2-12? Show me where it gives you all these powers you seem to think it gives you.

Ho Hum....
 

I purposely avoided "the Eagle" confrontation, but knew others would pick up the chase......

Never actually took part in one so I decided to give it a shot today :D

So what if that parent gets overly irate at you for not allowing their child to play? (comes out of the stands & gets in face or raises such a ruckus play has to be suspended)

No where am I saying "All powerful", everything I have done is as an assistance to the floor officials, not a hinderance. I always review things in my mind before doing them. I know how not to overstep the boundaries.

2-11 & 2-12 talk about duties only, not responsibilities. An official (no matter if they're on the field of play or off the field) has a responsibility to safety/security of those participating in the contest (no matter a player, coach/bench personnel, or fans).

Feel free to join in, the more the merrier LMAO :D:cool:

So officials are now supposed to answer questions/comments/concerns from the stands on why little Johnny/Sally didn't get to play? That's the coaches job, not ours. Or did I miss that POE this year? If they do decide to do something that dumb, it's bye-bye for them.

While you may think you're being helpful, IMO you're being an annoyance by overstepping your duties. Let us do our job, and you do yours. If you're so concerned with everything else, step out on the floor and put on the stripes and a whistle. I would be more than happy to work a game with you.

Parents Can Sometimes Help ...
 

So after you whistle a violation, and start bringing in substitutes from the table, when parents in the bleachers start saying, "Clock, clock, clock", you're not going to look up at the clock to realize that it hadn't stopped when the violation occurred?

C'mon. Let's be honest.

Billy,

You're right. I should have said 99% of what comes from the stands. I stand corrected.

I would love to be a floor official, however thanks to an incident last January I am unable to physically do the duties required.

The times I have assisted on situations like with the bobbie pins I have been thanked by the floor officials. These happenings are few & far between, on average maybe only once a season. Majority of the time for me, it's telling the scorer & visiting book that they need to be impartial or that they need to pay more attention to the game than talking to their friends.

Personally I would appreciate the help. In my other primary sport we often ask the people at the "table" to look for illegal equipment and jersey tuck when the player approaches and tells them the number of the player they are replacing. For me it prevents delay, I always check the incoming player, should they be illegally or improperly equipped, I have to take the time to disallow the substitution. When I delegate to the table to "pre-screen" the players I have fewer delays and less "perturbed" players and coaches from disallowing the sub.

C'mon Billy, I am not listening to a fan about the clock. I am not putting time based on the fan or what they are complaining about. If you do you will get it wrong most times as they do not know the rule or the reason you are changing the clock. If that is your position, then do you call a travel because a parent complains there is a travel too?

Peace

Now that's when I expect security/crowd control to step in and wrestle this offender to the ground. At this point an inspection for illegal hair pins can also be performed on this person, just in case.

Chseagle--you are not a game official...
 

...You are a Table Official. Numerous posters on this board have told you you are not a game official (referee/umpire) who wears a striped shirt, whistle, and lanyard. You are a table official (scorer or timer.) Kingsman1288strongly suggested that you read/study/adhere to rule 2-11 and 2-12. Those rules detail your duties and responsibilities. You are not a game official until you are able to take a rules test, pass a floor test, and start running up and down a gym floor. Let the people who have studied the rules, passed the tests, and know how to apply the rules by reffing many games do the officiating. The guys in the stripes with the whistles have their jobs to do and you have your jobs to do as the scorer, timer, crowd control person, etc. Concentrate on you jobs.

Personally I think that the dedicated table officials like chseagles should be issued tasers. It can be used at his own discretion on players with illegal equipment, officials who won't follow his direction, etc.

Holy Crap!
 

His discretion? I'm staying on the east coast! ;)

As for "the Eagle" for me, the ROCK said it best......"Know your role, and shut your mouth!"

I'd only use the taser against unruly hot mommas. I wouldn't be mean enough to use it against floor officials, maybe just against coaches trying to tell me how to run things when they have their own team to run.

Good grief - what is it lately with scorekeepers and their delusions of grandeur. First my crazy scorekeeper in softball, and now this...

Reading Is Fundamental ...
 

Please re-read my post. I didn't state that an official should listen to a fan's opinion regarding how much time to put on the clock. I just indicated that as an official, if I hear several fans yelling, "Clock, clock, clock", I'm going to "look" at the clock. If it's running when it's not supposed to be, I'm noting the time that I see on the game clock, sounding my whistle to try to get the clock stopped, and once stopped get together with my partner, and the table crew, to get the clock reset to the correct time, as near as we can figure by rule.

Please don't try to tell me that in this situation, waving in substitutes during a dead ball, clock stopped, scenario, that when several fans yell, "Clock, clock, clock", that you're not going to glance at the clock. Be honest.

I Should Have Known ...
 

chseagle does softball ???

Are These Still Valid ???
 

Inquiring minds want to know.

The "Garden State" and the "Bluegrass State":
"The National High School Federation and your state association require officials to enforce sportsmanship rules. High school athletics emphasize positive values. All of us have worked hard to create a sense of teamwork, respect, responsibility and perspective. We remind you that we expect good behavior and will quickly penalize misconduct. We encourage and appreciate your help. Let the competition reflect mutual respect among participants and officials. Coaches please certify that your players are legally equipped and uniformed according the NFHS rules. Good luck and have a great contest!" (New Jersey State Interscholastic Athletic Association, Kentucky High School Athletic Association)

The "Keystone State":
"PIAA requires all registered sports' officials to enforce the sportsmanship rules for coaches and contestants. Actions meant to demean opposing players, team, spectators and officials are not in the highest ideals of interscholastic education and will not be tolerated. Let today's contest reflect mutual respect. Coaches please certify to the umpire that your players are legally equipped and uniformed according to NFHS rules. Good luck in today's contest." (Pennsylvania Interscholastic Athletic Association)

The "Sunshine State":
To captains: "The FHSAA requires officials to enforce all rules regarding unsportsmanlike conduct by players and coaches. Violators will be ejected. It is strongly suggested that you remind your teammates and coaches
of this policy. Additionally, this is a simple reminder that jewelry is not allowed, and jerseys must be tucked in during play if they are designed to be worn in." To coaches: "Coaches, do you certify that your players are properly equipped and will demonstrate sportsmanlike behavior during today’s contest?" (Florida High School Activities Association)

Are there others?

This just made my day...I almost spit my drink all over my laptop :D

Billy I have been doing college ball since about 2001. I have learned to be obsessed with the clock because of the way you have to pay attention to the shot clock and if that starts properly or not. I do not need a fan to yell for me to notice when the clock starts or stops. As a matter of fact when I am the new trail I often look at the clock to gauge my speed of the count.

I have notice problems with the clock (as well as other officials) without any complaining from the fans at all. Which is why I do not care what fans yell and not my job to care. Now maybe you feel you need that help, I do not or rely on things the fans say. Now that is honest. And if I did not see the clock move or start wrong, if I do not notice it then we are not doing anything.

Probably a better and more common example is the scoreboard. How many times a game a fan thinks they did not award a point. I never respond to those or care. If the coach or player has an issue I might worry about it for a minute but only if they are worried about it for several minutes. I am not stopping the game to check even that. Because usually the second they complain the table people correct it.

If that is what you do, cool. Not what I do or worry about. Fans yell all kinds of things. And a uniform issue is quite different than a clock issue anyway. Still does not mean I am going to pay that close attention to the fans.

Peace

Tunnel Vision ...
 

I never said anything about paying close attention to fans.

I would still like you to answer my question. While your waving in substitutes, making sure that three come in, and three go out, with your attention directed toward the six players moving on, and off, the court, not looking at the clock at that specific time, and several fans yell, "Clock, clock, clock", that you're not going to glance at the clock. How could you ignore them?

Hope so. Read NFHS rule 2-4-5 lately?

2-4-5 ...
 

Verify with the head coach, prior to each contest, that his/her team
member’s uniforms and equipment are legal and will be worn properly, and that
all participants will exhibit proper sporting behavior throughout the contest.

I was referring to a script for states in addition to New Jersey, Kentucky, Florida, and Pennsylvania. Also, are these still valid in those states, or has the script changed recently. These scripts are rather dated.

Like I ignore them every other time. Billy, I do not need the fans to yell something to notice something. And just because they yell something does not mean they are right or know what they are talking about. It is not that hard.

Peace

"Because that's where the money is." ...
 

“Success in any endeavor requires single-minded attention to detail and total concentration.” (Willie Sutton)

My thoughts.

What does legally equipped mean?
In my mind when the question deal with game management.

If a player is sent out of the game to fix a uniform violation or an equipment problem, and the coach yells at us for taking their "star player" out at a key time our response can include coach you told me they were legal....I discovered that the player was not... (Read this as your fault not mine that the player is out because if you really had done your job you would know they werent legal and should not have been put in in the first place)

Based on the many references to crowd control, I'm assuming eagle has his own personal taser, probably with his initials on it.

Ironically I've never been licensed as an unarmed security officer, although I have had basically the full training.

I've never even held a taser or used one.

They're actually quite reasonable. I suggest ebay.

Plus a notch for every single official that disobeyed him.

becase 2.4.5 tells us to...

Why is that ironic?

This post and your original one about the taser are my nominees for post of the year :D

Because its in the rule book.

If I was to carry a taser on school grounds when doing table would get me arrested for having a weapon in a weapons-free zone.

Technically the only ones that can carry weapons are peace/law enforcement officers that are on duty or undercover.

I've seen many trolls, in many forums on the interwebs. I've never seen one allowed to take over and dominate a forum the way this troll has.

Conceal it down the front of your pants. The only way that anyone will ever know you have one would be from the smile on your face if you accidentaly hit the STUN button.

My wife would cream me if I did that.

Taser down front of pants? Hit the button?

...fighting hard to resist urge to post obvious response......:D

Keep up the good fight, JR.

Technically he's not a troll. Trolls don't carry tasers in their pants. But he's a close cousin, a very close cousin. ;)

Maybe a gnome?

No wonder gnomes always look so gruff. Carrying a taser in your pants has really got to chafe something fierce.

Is that what you call it?

The benefits out-weigh the disadvantages. Think of the advertising factor..."Are you glad to see me or is that a taser in your pants?" And if you don't believe me, ask chseagle. You really don't think that he's hitting the STUN button by accident, do you?