Oob ?

Scratch85 · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 12, 2010, 04:39pm

Sitch: Player A is near the endline behind his teams backboard. He is falling out-of-bounds and tries (unsuccessfully) to throw the ball over the backboard from the back. The ball doesn't touch anything except the top of the backboard and then falls back inbounds behind the backboard. The ball never touches any braces or the back of the backboard and remians in-bounds.

I am conflicting the rule 7-1-2 with the case 7.1.2. What is the opinion here? Does the ball remain live or is it a dead ball when it falls behind the backboard?

Camron Rust · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 12, 2010, 05:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scratch85

Sitch: Player A is near the endline behind his teams backboard. He is falling out-of-bounds and tries to throw the ball over the backboard from the back. The ball doesn't touch anything except the top of the backboard and then falls back inbounds behind the backboard. The ball never touches any braces or the back of the backboard and remians in-bounds.

I am conflicting the rule 7-1-2 with the case 7.1.2. What is the opinion here? Does the ball remain live or is it a dead ball when it falls behind the backboard?

Legal....ball remains live.

BktBallRef · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 12, 2010, 05:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Legal....ball remains live.

If the ball passes over the backboard from either side, it is OOB.

7-1-2
The ball is out of bounds:
b. When it passes over a rectangular backboard.

7.1.2 SITUATION A: The ball strikes the side edge or top edge of the backboard or passes over the top of the backboard and the ball: (a) came from a throw-in from behind the plane of the backboard; or (b) from a pass or try from the front or back of the plane of the backboard. The ball does not touch any supporting brace.
RULING: If a fan-shaped backboard is being used in (a) and in (b), the ball remains live. If a rectangular backboard is used in (a), the ball remains live after touching the side edge, but it is a violation if it passes directly over the backboard. In (b), the ball remains live if it touches a side edge or the top edge if it rebounds and comes down in front of the backboard. The ball becomes dead if it passes over the top of a rectangular backboard regardless of the action which causes it to pass over or whether it comes from the front or back of the plane.

Jurassic Referee · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 12, 2010, 05:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scratch85

I am conflicting the rule 7-1-2 with the case 7.1.2. What is the opinion here? Does the ball remain live or is it a dead ball when it falls behind the backboard?

Where's the conflict?

As Tony said, rule 7-1-2 says the ball is OOB if it passes over a rectangular backboard. Case book play 7.1.2SitA says the exact same thing.

Camron Rust · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 12, 2010, 06:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Legal....ball remains live.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

If the ball passes over the backboard from either side, it is OOB.

7-1-2
The ball is out of bounds:
b. When it passes over a rectangular backboard.

You seem to be disagreeing with my answer. If so, you might wish to reread the original post which I've condensed here to remove unnecessary info...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scratch85

Player A tries [unsuccessfully] to throw the ball over the backboard from the back. The ball [touches] the top of the backboard and falls back behind the backboard.

The ball never passed over the top of the board. This play is no different than a shot bouncing up to and on the top and falling back down in front of the basket. If it returns to the side from which it started without touching anything but the top of the board, it is legal.

Scratch85 · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 12, 2010, 06:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

If the ball passes over the backboard from either side, it is OOB.

7-1-2
The ball is out of bounds:
b. When it passes over a rectangular backboard.

7.1.2 SITUATION A: The ball strikes the side edge or top edge of the backboard or passes over the top of the backboard and the ball: (a) came from a throw-in from behind the plane of the backboard; or (b) from a pass or try from the front or back of the plane of the backboard. The ball does not touch any supporting brace.
RULING: If a fan-shaped backboard is being used in (a) and in (b), the ball remains live. If a rectangular backboard is used in (a), the ball remains live after touching the side edge, but it is a violation if it passes directly over the backboard. In (b), the ball remains live if it touches a side edge or the top edge if it rebounds and comes down in front of the backboard. The ball becomes dead if it passes over the top of a rectangular backboard regardless of the action which causes it to pass over or whether it comes from the front or back of the plane.

That is my conflict. The ball did not come down in front of the backboard

Jurassic Referee · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 12, 2010, 06:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scratch85

That is my conflict. The ball did not come down in front of the backboard

Again, where's the conflict.?

The rule and the case play cited both say the same thing. It's an OOB violation if the ball passes over a rectangular backboard. Naturally, if the ball doesn't pass over, it ain't an OOB violation.

BktBallRef · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 12, 2010, 06:48pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You seem to be disagreeing with my answer.

Really? Where?

Scratch85 · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 12, 2010, 06:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

If the ball passes over the backboard from either side, it is OOB.

7-1-2
The ball is out of bounds:
b. When it passes over a rectangular backboard.

7.1.2 SITUATION A: The ball strikes the side edge or top edge of the backboard or passes over the top of the backboard and the ball: (a) came from a throw-in from behind the plane of the backboard; or (b) from a pass or try from the front or back of the plane of the backboard. The ball does not touch any supporting brace. RULING: If a fan-shaped backboard is being used in (a) and in (b), the ball remains live. If a rectangular backboard is used in (a), the ball remains live after touching the side edge, but it is a violation if it passes directly over the backboard. In (b), the ball remains live if it touches a side edge or the top edge if it rebounds and comes down in front of the backboard. The ball becomes dead if it passes over the top of a rectangular backboard regardless of the action which causes it to pass over or whether it comes from the front or back of the plane.

Let me try again. In the "situation: part marked in red, it says that the pass or try may be attempted from the front or back of the backboard. Therefore, there is definitely a front and a back. In the "ruling" part marked in red, it says that the ball remains live if it comes down in front of the backboard.

It would be impossible for a pass or try attempted from behind the backboard to touch the top and come down in front of the backboard without passing over the backboard. since it does not come down in front of the backboard does that make this play illegal? Which contradicts most posters opinions.

Camron Rust · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 12, 2010, 08:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Really? Where?

That is why I said "seem". I wasn't sure....but that is the way I read it.

Obviously now, you were supplying the cite to support my response.

Camron Rust · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 12, 2010, 08:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scratch85

Let me try again. In the "situation: part marked in red, it says that the pass or try may be attempted from the front or back of the backboard. Therefore, there is definitely a front and a back. In the "ruling" part marked in red, it says that the ball remains live if it comes down in front of the backboard.

It would be impossible for a pass or try attempted from behind the backboard to touch the top and come down in front of the backboard without passing over the backboard. since it does not come down in front of the backboard does that make this play illegal? Which contradicts most posters opinions.

I believe you are correct. The setup in the situation does say the ball starts from the front or back while the ruling says it remains live if it comes down in the front.....that s wrong. It has to come back down on the same side to be legal....front if it started from the front.

Scratch85 · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 12, 2010, 09:00pm

Camron, I have great confidence in your, and most experienced posters, rules knowledge. But I have been getting my chops busted all day by JR and a few others about "Rules Rulz" (I think thats it)

It has been insinuated that my interpretation of a case play is weak officiating. I have been told that the specific definition of when a throw-in ends does not apply to 7-6-6. And now I am being told that the word "front" should not be in the case play and it should be ignored.

I think I'm going to give up for the day, have a few adult beverages and try again tomorrow.

Jurassic Referee · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 12, 2010, 09:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scratch85

Camron, I have great confidence in your, and most experienced posters, rules knowledge. But I have been getting my chops busted all day by JR and a few others about "Rules Rulz" (I think thats it)

Ah, time for some more chop-busting......

The RULING in red that you say is conflicting states that "In (b), the ball remains live if it touches the side edge or the top if it REBOUNDS and comes back down in front of the backboard.." In your sitch with the ball thrown from the back, did the ball "REBOUND"? Nope! It went over the board. the key word is "REBOUND". The ball can only REBOUND and come down in the front if it was thrown from the front or side originally. If it was thrown from the back, any REBOUND could only come down in the back. Simple physics. Iow, that sentence isn't applicable to the situation that you're describing.

What is applicable is the second part of the ruling that states "The ball becomes dead if it passes over the top of a rectangular backboard regardless of the action which causes it to pass over or whether it comes from the front or back of the plane."

Rules rulz...and you're reading too much into them and making them a heckuva lot more complicated than they are.

Scratch85 · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 12, 2010, 09:45pm

I think my OP is confusing. Camron added the word "unsuccessful" to my OP when he quoted it and that is how I meant it. The player does not throw the ball over the backboard, so the passing over the backboard part of the rule does not apply.

The ball hits the top of the backboard and "rebounds" on the back side of the backboard. The way I read that, it would be illegal. It did not rebound on the front side of the backboard.

Camron Rust · #15 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 13, 2010, 02:03am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scratch85

I think my OP is confusing. Camron added the word "unsuccessful" to my OP when he quoted it and that is how I meant it. The player does not throw the ball over the backboard, so the passing over the backboard part of the rule does not apply.

The ball hits the top of the backboard and "rebounds" on the back side of the backboard. The way I read that, it would be illegal. It did not rebound on the front side of the backboard.

That is the way the case play is written...you've read it correctly as far as it is written. But, it is worded incorrectly.

As written, is says that a ball that is thrown from behind the backboard that comes down on the front side remains live. That is not true. It is a violation....as stated in the next sentence in the case.