3-5-2c discussion
 

We had a meeting last night. We discussed the knee brace rule. For a long time our association wanted the braces covered with a sleeve even though the rule didn't specify. We opted against it last night. It was determined setting aside that rule is no different from setting aside any other rule.



Any other associations had similar discussion ?

1) The rule specifies that exposed hinges only must be covered. I'd be very careful altering a safety rule without approval from your state governing body.

2) Again, I'd be very, very careful with this. Anybody altering a safety rule is leaving themselves wide-open imo. Telling players that they can't participate even though the equipment that you're deeming illegal is regarded as legal by both the NFHS rulesmakers and your state governing body might be opening up helluva can of worms. State bodies in my experience kinda frown on their member officiating associations making up their own rules. I'd recommend asking somebody at the state level before implementing anything.

Whoops..see you're from Ontario, Canada. In that case I'd check with your provincial governing body.

3-5-2-c ...
 

Knee and ankle braces which are unaltered from the manufacturer’s original design/production are permitted and do not require any additional padding/covering.

Citation Please ...
 

Which rule?

just compared 2009 to 2010. There is a slight change.

Has case book play 3.5SitA changed too? I've just got an older rule/case book at my 'puter. That case play says also that all exposed hinges need to be covered.

I had a kid once tell me he had to keep his entire knee brace covered to keep it warm because he had knee-monia!

There are hinges available out on the market where the hinges are covered within neoprene or other material. The brace I have for my knee is hinged, & the hinges are covered.

What constitutes the hinges being covered?

If everyone would like, I can take a picture of the brace both on my knee & off as an example.

It's irrelevant this year as they changed the rule so that no covering or padding is required.

2010-11 NFHS Casebook ...
 

*3.5 SITUATION A: What are the standards which the referee must use in determining
whether a team member will be permitted to wear certain equipment?
RULING: There are three criteria which determine the legality of equipment. First,
any equipment which, in the judgment of the referee, is dangerous to others. In
this respect, elbow, wrist, hand, finger or forearm guards, casts or braces made
of hard and unyielding leather, plaster, plastic, metal or any other hard substance
shall always be declared illegal “even though covered with soft padding.” Thus,
the rule does not permit that this provision be set aside. The prohibition of the
use of hard substance material does not apply to the upper arm, or shoulder if
the hard material is appropriately padded so that in the judgment of the referee it
is not hazardous to others. Knee and ankle braces which are unaltered from the
manufacturer’s original design are permitted and do not require any additional
padding/covering. Equipment which could cut or cause an opponent to have an
abrasion is also always illegal and, therefore, is prohibited.
It will be noted that the listing of equipment which is always illegal is not inclusive.
It cannot identify every item which is not permitted. The generalization is
required since the referee’s judgment is necessary. The second standard provides
that “any equipment which is unnatural and designed to increase the player’s
height or reach, or to gain an advantage, shall not be used.” The referee is given
no leeway here and judgment is not required. The third criterion provides that
equipment used must be appropriate for basketball and not be confusing. In this
sense, gloves, football face masks and helmets are not acceptable. A protector for
a broken nose, even though made of hard material, is permissible provided it is
worn molded to the face with no protrusions. Eyeglass protectors are considered
appropriate equipment for basketball provided they meet the qualifications for
legal equipment, including the third criterion.
Religious and medical-alert medals are not considered jewelry and may be
worn provided: 1) religious medals are taped and worn under the uniform, necklaces/
bracelets must be removed or also taped and completely under the uniform;
and 2) medical-alert medals are taped to the body (portions may be visible to
show medical information), necklaces/bracelets must be removed or also completely
taped. An artificial limb may not be worn unless it has been specifically
approved by the state association and such authorization statement is available
to the referee.
The referee must rule on the legality of any piece of equipment which is worn
to protect an injury. Protective equipment must be individually inspected and
approved using the criteria outlined. In the case of headwear for medical,
cosmetic or religious reasons, the state association may approve upon proper
documentation as in 3-5-3 Exception a.

Kind of seems irrelevant that it's irrelevant as most of the hinged knee braces I've seen use metal for the hinges.

Although I haven't seen too many players wearing hinged knee braces.

I'm not seeing anything there pertaining to earrings or rings.

It's Not in "The Situation," it's in the Rule
 

Rule 3-5 ART. 7 . . . Jewelry is prohibited. Religious and medical-alert medals are not considered jewelry. A religious medal must be taped and worn under the uniform. A medical-alert medal must be taped and may be visible.

Maybe, but the construction of current knee braces is quite different now than years ago. Braces from 10-20 years ago had very blocky metal frames that could easily hurt someone. Modern braces, even though they are metal, are much more molded and usually don't have the same hard, blocky metal frames.

However in the situation it does say:

"Religious & medical-alert medals are not considered jewelry & may be
worn provided: 1) religious medals are taped & worn under the uniform, necklaces/bracelets must be removed or also taped and completely under the uniform; & 2) medical-alert medals are taped to the body (portions may be visible to show medical information), necklaces/bracelets must be removed or also completely taped."

So there is a mention about jewelry, although it's vague.

The other question then is: what is, specifically, considered jewelry?

Shoot Me!
 

I'm not going to get into a semantics and definitions discussion here. Ill leave the jewelry to my wife!

I'll say this though ......the officials ON THE FLOOR are responsible for policing what the players are permitted to wear or not.

As for those of you at the table, as has been said before - don't worry about it.

Anything which isn't specifically declared by the NFHS to NOT be jewelry.
Seems simple to me.

Of all of the thousands of topics you could discuss at a basketball meeting and your association chooses to talk about additional sleeving of a knee brace that meets all current rules and safety standards. No other pressing issues happening in the basketball world in Canada?

Carrot, Karat, Carat ???
 

If you weren't born with it, it's jewelry.

+1

Who woulda thunk it?
 

Wow, a tattoo is jewelry?

How often do floor officials notice a player on the floor with a necklace or earrings?

I am asking to see what the varying responses are.

To some any & all piercings are jewelry, to others it just depends on the location oif the piercing(s).

How the rule is stated, no jewelry allowed, does that include body piercings no matter the location, & if so how can that be enforced?

How many college & NBA players are guilty of that with their tattoos?

I'm not a plumber.......
 

I do a lot of girls V games. After we enter the court I look very carefully for berets, pins, earrings, necklaces, etc. Hair devices can be especially tough to spot depending on hair/device color. But, many are shiny and I catch the glare off the lights. If I see em I call the player over and tell them to get rid of em.

At the Captain's meeting they are specifically told about jewelry. At the coaches meeting - we ask the coaches, "Are your players properly equipt and ready to play?"

If after that I notice a player on the court with jewelry on......TWEEEEET! "Coach, I need another player, this one's not ready." AND, I send them off. No taking it off as they walk to the bench, etc. They're gone until the next dead ball.

Usually, the players learn quickly and it's not a problem as the yr goes on.

We've had the discussion about body piercings here before too.

Bottom Line - If I see it I take care of it.

Yes. Enforced if / when seen. I don't / won't go looking for items hidden in the mouth or under the uniform, even if the scorekeeper insists that someone is wearing jewelry.

I was just asking a generalized question pertaining to the rule as it pertains to piercings.

It's not like I'm gonna do as suggested. Considering there's a lot of piercings that can't be seen through clothing, or noticed.

Shoot, more than half the discussions we have in our meetings is about uniforms, hair control devices, etc. Basically stuff that has nothing to do with what happens on the floor. I mean, does it really affect the outcome of a game is there is more than one manufacturers logo on the socks? Please!

Like this one?

http://clandestinechic.files.wordpre.../aa-beret.jpeg

I forgot about the man. logo...my favorite!!! ;)

Ed Zackery
 

Illegal. Go sit down! ;)

Typical French. Most people wear berets to the right!

Socks are considered jewelry? ;)

IF they have more than one visible manufacturers logo they are!!!!!!

Lets Not Be So Hasty Here ???
 

For medical or cosmetic reasons – In the event a participant is required by a licensed medical physician to cover his/her head with a covering or wrap, the physician's statement is required before the state association can approve a covering or wrap which is not abrasive, hard or dangerous to any other player and which is attached in such a way it is highly unlikely that it will come off during play.

Maybe she's covering her lobotomy incision? Mark Padgett, what did you use to cover your lobotomy incision?

For religious reasons – In the event there is documented evidence provided to the state association that a participant may not expose his/her uncovered head, the state association may approve a covering or wrap which is not abrasive, hard or dangerous to any other player and which is attached in such a way it is highly unlikely it will come off during play.

Maybe she belongs to the Corporal Louis LeBeau Church of the Blessed Beret?

Well, since you put it that way......
 

Then, I might turn to my mentor for advice...of course Referee Schutlz would probably advise me to "Hear nothing and see nothing!" :eek:

I might have a tough time with that though.......

In War I Do Not Like To Take Sides ..
 

Oh, snap!

We do this thing every year it's called reviewing rule changes.

Try it some time, it will make you a better official.

Well that was unnecessary.

Probably that time of the month......:D

Haven't had one. I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy. :p

You mean when CONSTABLE becomes CONSTIPATED??:D

Shine On, Shine On Harvest Moon ...
 

No. The full moon was last night.

And the initial attack on my associations activities and basketball in general wasn't?

There is a rule change. We review them.

The rule change in question has sparked 2 pages of debate here and he is slagging how we talked about it?

I stand by my remarks.

Hey, grune, got a rules citation to back up the procedure that you use?

After rereading that same post quoted, I was asking myself the same question.

Since jewelry (except MedAlert & Religious) is prohibited, shouldn't that be a technical against that player?

From your second sentence, we are NOT asking the same question.

No, it is NOT a technical foul of any kind. Please don't muddy the waters with that. I'm asking grune a legit question about his method for handling a player wearing an illegal item during the game. Please allow him to respond and answer it.

There is no need to get snooty when I am asking a valid question. Since jewelry is prohibited (not allowed, illegal, not part of uniform), some may think that it should be a technical foul. I was asking for clarification.

I was not being snooty. I was expressing my exasperation at having to inform you of a very simple and well-known ruling. Well, that's for any basketball official. Of course, you are not an official, so you don't know it.

3.5.6 SITUATION A: Substitute A6 is beckoned and enters the court to replace
A1. A6 is wearing: (a) compression shorts below the game pants which extend
below the knees; (b) cut-off jeans extending below the game pants; or (c) jewelry.
RULING: The items in (a), (b) and (c) are illegal and A6 will not be allowed to
participate while wearing the items. No penalty is involved. A6 simply cannot
participate until the illegal items are removed. (3-5-7)

Can we now move past what everyone else already knows and focus our time on discussing a real procedural question on this subject without any further distraction from you?

BTW that's me being snooty.

Nope. Local policy as taught to me during evaluations.

It was said to me for example, you have a player who you discover has one of those cloth wrist bands tied on or a tight necklace that you couldn't see because of his warm-ups. Are you going to delay the game as he tries to take it off? Just tell the coach you need another player and lets keep the game going. And that's how I do it.

Your local policy doesn't follow proper NFHS procedures. See:

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...s-archive.html

2006-07 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS-SITUATION 7
After playing for nearly 3 minutes, A1 is discovered in the game wearing (a) a sweatband above the elbow, or (b) a headband around the neck.
RULING: In both (a) and (b), A1 is instructed to remove the illegal item, make it legal or leave the game; he/she may not participate until compliance with the rule. (3-5-3c, 3-5-4)

It's probably quicker to get a player to remove something than having to explain the situation to the coach and get a sub in.

In the two particular situations I mentioned, or even an earring in some cases, I might opine that it oft takes a long time to remove those items, is a prolonged interruption of the game and may be prudent make the player "leave the game" as in the interpretation. In the case of a hair restraint device or wrist band that is easily removed, I concur.

I will ask for clarification at my next games/evals Thurs night. Thanks.

We have this as a policy as well. It dovetails (no pun intended) with the similar policy for having jersey tucked in. We will refuse entry if it is not tucked in when they are at the table and we will send them off to tuck it in if it keeps coming untucked during the game. They do get warnings from us but we have limits.

Jerseys not tucked in, etc, are a different animal, rules-wise. They are legal uniforms not being worn properly and are covered under rule 3-3-5. By rule, the player is supposed to leave the game. However, the most common procedure followed according to the many past threads that we've had on this is to refuse entry to a player without their shirt tucked in, but for players already in the game just tell 'em to re-tuck the jersey. You only send them out if they refuse to re-tuck 'em or they're continually un-tucking 'em. The rationale was the same cite I gave above, using the language "make it legal or leave the game". You can make sweatbands/jerseys/pants not being worn properly legal, but you can't make jewelry, unsafe equipment, etc. legal.

See post #54 for my thoughts on it. Your state interpreter might be the only person able to give you a definitive ruling. Whatever your association decides though is fine imo as long as all of your officials are enforcing the situation uniformly. The players and coaches in your area have to know what to expect.

Understand and agreed.

This happens seldom at the V level, but at sub-V it happens more. Hence, when I ask the coaches, "Are your players properly equipped and ready to play?" I usually get a "yes" or "I hope so" or "possibly." (hahaha - NOT) Then, when we "consistently" enforce the rule, they know we are vigilant and not messing around.

No Rebounders On Lane Lines ???
 

Doesn't this situation become difficult when the offending player is about to be awarded a free throw? Didn't we have a discussion about that specific situation a few years ago?

*3.3.5 Situation A ...
 

Found it:

*3.3.5 SITUATION A: B1 fouls A1. Just before A1 goes to the line for a one and
one, the official observes: (a) A1 pull the shirt out of his/her pants; or (b) A1’s
pants being worn below the hips. RULING: In both (a) and (b), A1 will be directed
to put the shirt in the pants or pull up the pants, and must leave the game
immediately following his/her last free throw(s). The lane is cleared for the free
throw and Team B is awarded the ball for a throw-in, whether or not the last free
throw is successful. COMMENT: A charged time-out by Team A does not alter the
requirement for A1 to leave the game.

The asterisk indicates a recent change. What changed?

The "COMMENT" highlighted in red was added to the case play. The rest of it hasn't changed since it was put in 2-3 years ago.

Merci Beaucoup ...
 

Muchas gracias.

Two Plus Two Equals ???
 

2010-11 NFHS MAJOR EDITORIAL CHANGES: Clarified the requirements for guards, casts and braces and that a protective face mask shall be worn molded to the face.

I just realized that this thread is probably based on this editorial change. We haven't had our interpretation/rule change/mechanics change meeting yet. I was wondering when the "exposed hinges on the knee brace rule" got changed? I guess that it was very recently.

Here's this year's: "Knee and ankle braces which are unaltered from the manufacturer’s original design are permitted and do not require any additional padding/covering. Equipment which could cut or cause an opponent to have an abrasion is also always illegal and, therefore, is prohibited."

This is last year's: "Knee and ankle braces are permitted, but all exposed hinges must be covered. Equipment which could cut or cause an opponent to have an abrasion is also always illegal and, therefore, is prohibited."

So there is no longer a specific requirement for exposed hinges to be covered, but there is still a provision allowing the referee to rule it illegal if there is something about the brace that could cause a cut, which is what (I believe) we worried about with exposed hinges.

Traveling Along, Singing A Song, Side By Side ...
 

Thanks for the comparison.

Thanks, JR. You have elaborated on the point that I was making to grune.
I agree with all that you have written in the above posts.

Has it not perhaps been considered that I have not read any of the situations or just read the rules book?

For items a & b in the situation, wouldn't the player have to be escorted to the locker room by a coach or other designated personnel to remove said illegal items? (Something I've never seen put into effect)

After further investigation, I can see where a team will not be penalized for the stupidity of one player.

Well, that would be your problem. It is a pretty basic assumption that people discussion the rules and rulings will have at least done so.

If you have not read them, you should.

Technically, No. It may be possible to either remove or make legal the offending item without removing the pants or shorts. The long compression shorts could simply be pushed/rolled up or cut off.

If that does happen, I guarantee you (assuming we're dealing with a girls game, jewelry/piercings isn't that much if an issue with guys from my experience) that the first time she takes a hard bump/knee/contact (or biting down on a tongue stud) to an area with a piercing she will be thinking twice before wearing it out on the floor (halftime or next game) again.

I would hope that a player getting into the game of basketball realizes there is contact of varying degree and in knowing that would knowingly remove _any_ piercing as to avoid any type of injury sustained from wearing it during a game.

Just my two cents.

Hope springs eternal!! :)

Alas, many young people simply don't think about such things ahead of time. Welcome to the forum, TJ. Hope you keep checking in throughout the season.

Agreed....
 

C'mon TJ - if the players take out their jewelry they won't look as :cool:. Isn't THAT, what's most important to some of these players? ;)

and, concur - welcome to the forum!

Thats when they should opt for the other position during a game....cheerleader. I hear there aren't jewelry restrictions there! :p

Thanks Scrapper and grune, being a young official, I hope to use of much information as possible when I can get it.

And now we have a brand new interp from this year saying the same thing as the one from 2006-07 and making it clear that the local policy of grune's area in NOT how the NFHS wants this handled.

2010-2011 NFHS Basketball Interp:

SITUATION 2: A1 is discovered wearing an illegal headband during a live ball. RULING: Illegal player equipment shall not be worn and, if discovered, it must be removed immediately. If it cannot be removed immediately, the player is directed to leave the game. COMMENT: There is no provision to permit a player directed to leave the game to remain in the game by assessing a technical foul or granting a time-out. (3-3-4; 3-3-5)