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BillyMac Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:18am

Illegal Uniforms ???
 
I'm still working on my article on administrative infraction technical foul penalties. I was just about to "put the article to bed" and submit it when a question regarding illegal uniforms came to mind.

Here's the rule citation:

NFHS 10-5-4: The head coach shall not permit a team member to participate while wearing an illegal uniform (see 3-4). PENALTY: (Section 5) Two free throws plus ball for division-line throw-in. The foul is charged directly to the head coach. (Art. 4) Penalized when discovered. Only one technical foul is charged regardless of the number of offenders.

Here's my interpretation, for my article, of the rule citation:

Technical fouls for illegal uniforms (including illegal numbers) are not charged to the team, but are charged directly to the head coach. If a team member participates as a player while wearing an illegal uniform, then a direct technical foul is charged to the head coach, who will lose the coaching box privilege for the remainder of the game. This infraction is penalized when discovered, and the team member with the illegal uniform may participate without further penalty and is not required to change the number. A maximum of one technical foul shall be charged directly to the head coach regardless of the number of offenders.

Here's the situation that gave me pause:

The referee carelessly fails to note that A16 (an illegal number, and thus, an illegal uniform) is listed in the scorebook when he checks the scorebook twelve minutes before the scheduled start of the game. A16 is wearing a jacket during the pregame warmups so the illegal number is missed by the umpire observing the pregame warmup.

In the first period A16 legally reports to the table, is legally beckoned into the game, and participates in the game without the officials noticing that A16 is participating while wearing an illegal uniform.

Late in the first period A5 legally reports to the table, is legally beckoned into the game, and replaces A16, who is now legally bench personnel (team member, but not a player). The ball is made live and put back into play by a throwin at which point the Team B coach questions the officials about the status of A16's illegal uniform.

Is it too late to penalize the infraction at this point because A16 is no longer participating? Would it have mattered if the Team B coach questioned the officials after A16 became bench personnel but before the ball had been made live? I think not, in both cases, because the rule states "penalized when discovered" not "penalized if discovered while being violated" or "penalized if discovered before the ball becomes live" so once A16 participated the infraction could be penalized anytime after that once it came to attention of the officials. Any thoughts on this situation?

Another scenario: For the reasons stated above, it is not realized that A16 is wearing an illegal uniform until halftime. A16 has not yet participated in the game as one of the five players participating on the court. If A16 stays on the bench and never participates in the game as one of the five players participating on the court, then I'm assuming that no infraction has occurred, and no penalty is enforced. Am I wrong to assume this?

Just getting all my "ducks in a row" before I submit the article. Thanks.

SAK Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:53am

If A16 never enters the game then there is no reason for the scorer to change the number in the score book. 10-2-c the note says penalize when they occur. A16 has not entered the game so if the official missed it in the book prior to the 10 minute mark nothing has occurred. Also this is a team technical, an Administrative technical not charged to the head coach but counts toward team fouls (see Technical-Foul Penalty Summary chart at the back of the rule book.

BillyMac Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:03am

Please Double Check This ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SAK (Post 688751)
Also this is a team technical, an Administrative technical not charged to the head coach but counts toward team fouls (see Technical-Foul Penalty Summary chart at the back of the rule book.

Are you sure? Illegal uniforms (and thus, illegal numbers (NFHS 3-4)) fall under 10-5-4 and are charged directly to the head coach.

NFHS 10-5-4: The head coach shall not permit a team member to participate while wearing an illegal uniform (see 3-4). PENALTY: (Section 5) Two free throws plus ball for division-line throw-in. The foul is charged directly to the head coach. (Art. 4) Penalized when discovered. Only one technical foul is charged regardless of the number of offenders.

BillyMac Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:08am

No Change In Scorebook Needed ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SAK (Post 688751)
If A16 never enters the game then there is no reason for the scorer to change the number in the score book.

My fault. I didn't make this clear in my original post. Let's assume that A16 is wearing number sixteen on his uniform, and that there are no extra uniforms available, so he's going to wear number sixteen no matter what, as a team member on the bench, or as a player if, and when, he gets into the game, so in all cases, there would be no change in the scorebook.

I do agree with you that if A16 never enters the game as a player, then there is no infraction, and thus, no penalty, but, as stated above, disagree with you regarding the need, or lack of, to change the book.

BillyMac Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:17am

Ten Minute Mark ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SAK (Post 688751)
A16 has not entered the game so if the official missed it in the book prior to the 10 minute mark nothing has occurred.

Does the ten minute mark in any way apply to illegal uniforms, and thus, illegal numbers?

bob jenkins Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:39am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAK (Post 688751)
If A16 never enters the game then there is no reason for the scorer to change the number in the score book. 10-2-c the note says penalize when they occur. A16 has not entered the game so if the official missed it in the book prior to the 10 minute mark nothing has occurred. Also this is a team technical, an Administrative technical not charged to the head coach but counts toward team fouls (see Technical-Foul Penalty Summary chart at the back of the rule book.

Wrong rule.

An illegal uniform / number used to be charged to the player ( was 10-3-2); now it's charged to the head coach (10-5-4).

The "ten minute rule" doesn't have much to do with this, although if the infraction is discovered before that point, and can be corrected, then there's going to be no penalty.

BillyMac Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:54am

Illegal And Penalized ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 688754)
Does the ten minute mark in any way apply to illegal uniforms, and thus, illegal numbers?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 688755)
The "ten minute rule" doesn't have much to do with this, although if the infraction is discovered before that point, and can be corrected, then there's going to be no penalty.

So the uniform number sixteen on a team member doesn't become "illegal and penalized" until after the ten minute mark, and after the team member with such an illegal uniform number has actually participated in the game?

Adam Sun Aug 15, 2010 01:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 688757)
So the uniform number sixteen on a team member doesn't become "illegal and penalized" until after the ten minute mark, and after the team member with such an illegal uniform number has actually participated in the game?

by "corrected", bob of course means the player may change jerseys (if available).

BillyMac Sun Aug 15, 2010 01:51pm

Let Me Make This Simplier ...
 
The referee carelessly fails to note that A16 (an illegal number, and thus, an illegal uniform) is listed in the scorebook when he checks the scorebook twelve minutes before the scheduled start of the game. A16 is wearing a jacket during the pregame warmups so the illegal number is missed by the umpire observing the pregame warmup. A16 starts the game. One minute into the game, while A16 is one of the five players participating on the court, an official notices that A16 is wearing an illegal uniform, due to an illegal number, and charges head coach of Team A with a direct technical foul, which counts toward the team foul total for the purpose of the bonus. The head coach of Team A will lose the coaching box privilege for the remainder of the game. Team B receives two free throws for the technical foul and receives the ball for a throwin at the division line opposite the table. A16, and any other Team A players with illegal uniforms are allowed to play with no further penalty.

Correct interpretation?

BillyMac Sun Aug 15, 2010 02:05pm

Really Simple ...
 
The referee carelessly fails to note that A16 (an illegal number, and thus, an illegal uniform) is listed in the scorebook when he checks the scorebook twelve minutes before the scheduled start of the game. A16 is wearing a jacket during the pregame warmups so the illegal number is missed by the umpire observing the pregame warmup. A16 never participates in the game as one of the five players participating on the court. Score at the buzzer that ends the fourth period: Team A 60, Team B 59. Before leaving the visual confines of the court at the end of the game, the head coach of Team B politely points out to the officials that team member A16 had an illegal uniform, due to an illegal number. The officials, citing NFHS 10-5-4: "The head coach shall not permit a team member to participate while wearing an illegal uniform ... Penalized when discovered.", rules that no infraction has occurred because A16 never "participated".

Correct interpretation?

BillyMac Sun Aug 15, 2010 02:09pm

More Complex ...
 
The referee carelessly fails to note that A16 (an illegal number, and thus, an illegal uniform) is listed in the scorebook when he checks the scorebook twelve minutes before the scheduled start of the game. A16 is wearing a jacket during the pregame warmups so the illegal number is missed by the umpire observing the pregame warmup. A16 starts the game. One minute into the game, substitute A5 reports to the table, is legally beckoned, and legally replaces A16, who now becomes a nonparticipating team member on the bench. Head coach of Team B now politely points out that A16, who is now on the bench, was wearing an illegal uniform, due to an illegal number, while participating a few moments ago. The official, citing NFHS 10-5-4: "The head coach shall not permit a team member to participate while wearing an illegal uniform ... Penalized when discovered.", now charges head coach of Team A with a direct technical foul, which counts toward the team foul total for the purpose of the bonus. The head coach of Team A will lose the coaching box privilege for the remainder of the game. Team B receives two free throws for the technical foul and receives the ball for a throwin at the division line opposite the table. A16, and any other Team A players with illegal uniforms are allowed to play with no further penalty.

Correct interpretation? Does the fact the the ball is live, or dead, when the inquiry is made by head coach of Team B have any impact on this interpretation?

BillyMac Sun Aug 15, 2010 02:22pm

Let's Push The Envelope ...
 
The referee carelessly fails to note that A16 (an illegal number, and thus, an illegal uniform) is listed in the scorebook when he checks the scorebook twelve minutes before the scheduled start of the game. A16 is wearing a jacket during the pregame warmups so the illegal number is missed by the umpire observing the pregame warmup. A16 starts the game. One minute into the game, substitute A5 reports to the table, is legally beckoned, and legally replaces A16, who now becomes a nonparticipating team member on the bench. A16 does not participate as one of the five players on the court for the rest of the game. Score at the buzzer that ends the fourth period: Team A 60, Team B 59. Before leaving the visual confines of the court at the end of the fourth period, the head coach of Team B politely points out to the officials that team member A16 participated with an illegal uniform, due to an illegal number. The officials, citing NFHS 10-5-4: "The head coach shall not permit a team member to participate while wearing an illegal uniform ... Penalized when discovered.", now charges head coach of Team A with a direct technical foul, which counts toward the team foul total for the purpose of the bonus. The head coach of Team A will lose the coaching box privilege for the remainder of the game. Team B receives two free throws for the technical foul. Two successful free throws will end the game with a victory for Team B. No successful free throws will end the game with a victory for Team A. If only one free throw throw is successful, then the game will go into overtime. A16, and any other Team A players with illegal uniforms are allowed to play in the overtime with no further penalty.

Correct interpretation?

BktBallRef Sun Aug 15, 2010 04:30pm

I've got a headache. http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...ages/sick3.gif

Jurassic Referee Sun Aug 15, 2010 05:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 688778)

it's called "paralysis through analysis".

BillyMac Sun Aug 15, 2010 05:44pm

Inquiring Minds Want To Know ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 688782)
It's called "paralysis through analysis".

OK, so you're not pleased that I broke it down into a few different situations, each with a slight variation. I can understand that. But the bottom line is:

Are my interpretations correct?

Can a general statement be made regarding NFHS 10-5-4 that the infraction can be penalized at any time, up until the officials leave the confines of the gym, if the player with the illegal uniform (illegal number) actually participated in the game as one of the five players, even if there was a time lag between said player participating and the discovery of the infraction?

sseltser Sun Aug 15, 2010 06:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 688783)
OK, so you're not pleased that I broke it down into a few different situations, each with a slight variation. I can understand that. But the bottom line is:

Are my interpretations correct?

Can a general statement be made regarding NFHS 10-5-4 that the infraction can be penalized at any time, up until the officials leave the confines of the gym, if the player with the illegal uniform (illegal number) actually participated in the game as one of the five players, even if there was a time lag between said player participating and the discovery of the infraction?

For simplifying purposes:

Play 1: The officials notice A16 wearing an illegal uniform while he is on the court.

Play 2: A16 never participates, but his name and number are in the book.

Play 3: The officials notice A16 wearing an illegal uniform just after he leaves the game for a substitute.

Play 4: The officials notice A16 wearing an illegal uniform long after he leaves the game, even after the final horn has sounded.


Assuming that I have those situations correct, these are my interpretations:

Play 1 - T.
Play 2 - No T.
Play 3 and Play 4 are logically equivalent. I would be inclined to rule both as T's.

The relevant question: Is there a "statute of limitations" on when an illegal uniform T can be issued?

BillyMac Sun Aug 15, 2010 07:29pm

Thank You...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sseltser (Post 688786)
Play 1: The officials notice A16 wearing an illegal uniform while he is on the court.
Play 2: A16 never participates, but his name and number are in the book.
Play 3: The officials notice A16 wearing an illegal uniform just after he leaves the game for a substitute.
Play 4: The officials notice A16 wearing an illegal uniform long after he leaves the game, even after the final horn has sounded.
Assuming that I have those situations correct, these are my interpretations:
Play 1 - T.
Play 2 - No T.
Play 3 and Play 4 are logically equivalent. I would be inclined to rule both as T's.

I concur. Any other interpretations out there in Official Forum Land?

BillyMac Sun Aug 15, 2010 07:31pm

Same Question ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sseltser (Post 688786)
The relevant question: Is there a "statute of limitations" on when an illegal uniform T can be issued?

I don't think so, but I'm willing to hear other viewpoints.

bob jenkins Sun Aug 15, 2010 08:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by sseltser (Post 688786)
For simplifying purposes:

Play 1: The officials notice A16 wearing an illegal uniform while he is on the court.

Play 2: A16 never participates, but his name and number are in the book.

Play 3: The officials notice A16 wearing an illegal uniform just after he leaves the game for a substitute.

Play 4: The officials notice A16 wearing an illegal uniform long after he leaves the game, even after the final horn has sounded.


Assuming that I have those situations correct, these are my interpretations:

Play 1 - T.
Play 2 - No T.
Play 3 and Play 4 are logically equivalent. I would be inclined to rule both as T's.

The relevant question: Is there a "statute of limitations" on when an illegal uniform T can be issued?

Agreed with 1 and 2.

3 and 4 are the same as "player with the wrong number in the book who doesn't score or foul" questions we've gone on and on (and on) about over the years. No specific guidance, as far as I recall (but it's still summer and my mind is a million miles from basketball).

Nevadaref Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 688789)
I concur. Any other interpretations out there in Official Forum Land?

I agree with the answers by sselter. Also, there is no statute of limitations on an illegal uniform direct T to the head coach. If it can be proven that the player participated while wearing an illegal uniform, then the penalty is warranted.

Nevadaref Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 688795)
3 and 4 are the same as "player with the wrong number in the book who doesn't score or foul" questions we've gone on and on (and on) about over the years. No specific guidance, as far as I recall (but it's still summer and my mind is a million miles from basketball).

That changed last season when the NFHS did provide some specific guidance.

See 3.2.2 Sit C.

Of course, I've taken the position that the NFHS play ruling is incorrect as it does not mesh with the text of the NFHS rules book.

BillyMac Mon Aug 16, 2010 02:29am

*3.2.2 situation c ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 688809)
See 3.2.2 Sit C.

*3.2.2 SITUATION C: Team A substitute No. 25 reports to the table for the first
time with approximately one minute remaining in the second quarter and is beckoned
onto the court. In (a), the ball is put in play by a throw-in from A1 to A2.
The horn sounds and the scorer informs the officials that No. 25 is not listed in
the scorebook. In (b), No. 25 plays the remainder of the second quarter. During
halftime intermission, the official scorer realizes No. 25 is not listed in the scorebook
and informs the officials when they return to the court before the start of
the third quarter. RULING: In (a), No. 25 is currently in the game and became a
player when he/she legally entered the court. Since his or her name and number
must now be entered into the scorebook, a technical foul is charged to Team A.
In (b), no penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game. If No. 25
attempts to enter the game in the second half, his or her name and number will
be added to the scorebook and a technical foul charged to Team A. (3-2-2b; 10-
1-2b)

4-34:
ART. 1 A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court
at any given time, except intermission.
ART. 2 Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with
a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and
statistician(s). During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel.

sseltser Mon Aug 16, 2010 07:24am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 688808)
I agree with the answers by sselter. Also, there is no statute of limitations on an illegal uniform direct T to the head coach. If it can be proven that the player participated while wearing an illegal uniform, then the penalty is warranted.

Just so that I'm clear:

If A25 enters the game, but is not in the book, and leaves the game with no one noticing, then A25 does not need to be added (with a penalty of a T) unless he is substituted back into the game.

If A16 is in the game (and in the book) and leaves, then HC of team A can be issued a direct T for the illegal uniform at any point that it is dicovered until the official's jurisdiction ends.


New play (call if play #5): A16 is not listed in the official scorebook and is wearing an illegal uniform. A16 enters the game and the scorer does not notify the official that A16 needs to be entered into the book and none of the officials notice that A16 is wearing an illegal uniform. A16 leaves the game 1 minute later and a)does not return or b) returns in the fourth quarter. In both a) and b), after A16 leaves the game, the situation is brought to the attention of the officials.

Question: In a) Should HC A be issued a T for the illegal uniform when the officials notice that he participated? Does it matter that A16 is not in the book?

In b) Should HC A be issued a T for the illegal uniform when the officials notice that he participated? When A16 attempts to enter the game in the 4th quarter, is A also issued a T for adding the player into the book?

bainsey Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:14am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 688783)
Are my interpretations correct?

It appears to me that the key word in 10-5-4 is "participate." I take that to mean a player, and not bench personnel.

Nevadaref Mon Aug 16, 2010 05:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by sseltser (Post 688824)
Just so that I'm clear:

If A25 enters the game, but is not in the book, and leaves the game with no one noticing, then A25 does not need to be added (with a penalty of a T) unless he is substituted back into the game.

If A16 is in the game (and in the book) and leaves, then HC of team A can be issued a direct T for the illegal uniform at any point that it is dicovered until the official's jurisdiction ends.


New play (call if play #5): A16 is not listed in the official scorebook and is wearing an illegal uniform. A16 enters the game and the scorer does not notify the official that A16 needs to be entered into the book and none of the officials notice that A16 is wearing an illegal uniform. A16 leaves the game 1 minute later and a)does not return or b) returns in the fourth quarter. In both a) and b), after A16 leaves the game, the situation is brought to the attention of the officials.

Question: In a) Should HC A be issued a T for the illegal uniform when the officials notice that he participated? Does it matter that A16 is not in the book?

In b) Should HC A be issued a T for the illegal uniform when the officials notice that he participated? When A16 attempts to enter the game in the 4th quarter, is A also issued a T for adding the player into the book?

My opinion is to charge two technical fouls at the time that you learn of the infractions. One goes directly to the head coach for allowing A16 to participate with an illegal uniform and the other is a Team tech for requiring the scorer to add a player after the 10-minute mark.

I think that the NFHS play ruling from last year is simply wrong. As the referee one cannot allow a team to play someone not on the roster and get away without penalty simply because the scorer fails to properly notify the crew. General fairness dictates otherwise.

Adam Mon Aug 16, 2010 08:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 688896)
My opinion is to charge two technical fouls at the time that you learn of the infractions. One goes directly to the head coach for allowing A16 to participate with an illegal uniform and the other is a Team tech for requiring the scorer to add a player after the 10-minute mark.

I think that the NFHS play ruling from last year is simply wrong. As the referee one cannot allow a team to play someone not on the roster and get away without penalty simply because the scorer fails to properly notify the crew. General fairness dictates otherwise.

Are you basing your ruling on the plainly written rule, or on "general fairness?"

Nevadaref Mon Aug 16, 2010 08:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 688908)
Are you basing your ruling on the plainly written rule, or on "general fairness?"

Both.
Rule references are 2-11-1&2 as well as 10-1-2b.

Jurassic Referee Tue Aug 17, 2010 06:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 688910)
Both.
Rule references are 2-11-1&2 as well as 10-1-2b.

There are no penalties listed anywhere for the scorer failing to follow the rules that you cited. Your rules citations are completely irrelevant. And fer sure there's nothing written anywhere in the rules that would penalize a team twice for committing one supposed rules infraction. Au contraire, the rules committee very specifically stated their intent and purpose when implementing this rule that "This rule change reduces the penalty from one technical foul to each starter and substitute to a maximum of one technical foul assessed directly to the head coach."

What you are advocating is that officials should fail to follow the rules as written, and instead follow what you personally happen to think is "fair". That's just wrong.

Camron Rust Tue Aug 17, 2010 01:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 688936)
There are no penalties listed anywhere for the scorer failing to follow the rules that you cited. Your rules citations are completely irrelevant. And fer sure there's nothing written anywhere in the rules that would penalize a team twice for committing one supposed rules infraction. Au contraire, the rules committee very specifically stated their intent and purpose when implementing this rule that "This rule change reduces the penalty from one technical foul to each starter and substitute to a maximum of one technical foul assessed directly to the head coach."

What you are advocating is that officials should fail to follow the rules as written, and instead follow what you personally happen to think is "fair". That's just wrong.

Agree....While they did drop the wording of the former rule that restricted illegal uniform penalties to only being applicable as a player entered the game, I don't think they intended that a T be called in the 4th quarter for a player with an illegal jersey participating only in the 1st quarter.

At most, I think the desired interpratation is that a T will be called if an illegal jersey is discovered while the player is participating....I do not believe that it is intended to be retroactive.

In fact, they probably intended the penalizable window to be the same as it was before and only meant to change the recipient of the penalty and limit it to one per game.

MD Longhorn Tue Aug 17, 2010 02:06pm

Really guys?

Uniform number 16 is illegal and has been for quite a while. Does this EVER come up? It's not like someone accidentally and randomly puts numbers on jerseys. Perhaps if this does come up, there is no in-game penalty, but whoever ironed on the number to the jersey gets fired.

Camron Rust Tue Aug 17, 2010 02:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 688974)
Really guys?

Uniform number 16 is illegal and has been for quite a while. Does this EVER come up? It's not like someone accidentally and randomly puts numbers on jerseys. Perhaps if this does come up, there is no in-game penalty, but whoever ironed on the number to the jersey gets fired.

True, but illegal numbers are far from the only way to infringe on the uniform requirements...illegal colors, patterns, logos, etc. Using the number "16" is only a vehicle to discuss the application of the penalty.

It was only a couple of years ago where the rules were changed to require the home team to wear whilte. Also, there have been several occurrances over the years of a team buying new jerseys only to find out that, while they look really cool and may be acceptable by some leagues, they violate the NFHS requirements.

bainsey Tue Aug 17, 2010 02:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 688974)
Uniform number 16 is illegal and has been for quite a while. Does this EVER come up?

I've never seen it in any high school game I've worked, but I've seen it a few times in middle school games. That also goes for white undershirts on visiting jerseys. ("It's just a high school rule," I was once told.)

Our board's orders are to enforce these rules at all levels, except the "home team must wear white" rule is only enforceable at the varsity level. (The board recognizes that sub-varsity teams often get hand-me-downs.) I'm curious how other boards nationwide enforce the uniform/undershirt rules, rec games and scrimmages notwithstanding.

Camron Rust Tue Aug 17, 2010 03:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 688979)
I've never seen it in any high school game I've worked, but I've seen it a few times in middle school games. That also goes for white undershirts on visiting jerseys. ("It's just a high school rule," I was once told.)

Our board's orders are to enforce these rules at all levels, except the "home team must wear white" rule is only enforceable at the varsity level. (The board recognizes that sub-varsity teams often get hand-me-downs.) I'm curious how other boards nationwide enforce the uniform/undershirt rules, rec games and scrimmages notwithstanding.

Portland...

Undershirts at all HS levels (V, JV, F)....not that every single official enforces it.

Uniforms....V only. JV & F have statewide exceptions for the reasons you state.

Adam Tue Aug 17, 2010 03:48pm

I enforce undershirts at all school-sanctioned levels during the season. Gold Crown (similar to AAU) is a bit more lax with undershirts, as is summer ball, due to the nature of the leagues (players are using reversable shirts and often flip it around on the court.)

Uniforms: V only. Yes, this means I work summer games with numbers that would draw Ts in season games.

Nevadaref Tue Aug 17, 2010 05:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 688936)
There are no penalties listed anywhere for the scorer failing to follow the rules that you cited. Your rules citations are completely irrelevant. And fer sure there's nothing written anywhere in the rules that would penalize a team twice for committing one supposed rules infraction. Au contraire, the rules committee very specifically stated their intent and purpose when implementing this rule that "This rule change reduces the penalty from one technical foul to each starter and substitute to a maximum of one technical foul assessed directly to the head coach."

What you are advocating is that officials should fail to follow the rules as written, and instead follow what you personally happen to think is "fair". That's just wrong.

Obviously, I disagree with you. You didn't seem to RTFQ very carefully.

There are two issues here.
1. a team member who participates is not listed on team roster supplied to the scorer prior to the game.
2. a team member wears an illegal uniform while participating

These two infractions have nothing to do with each other. There is no way that the rules call for only one technical foul for both infractions.

Furthermore, what the heck are you talking about in terms of penalizing the scorer? :confused: I never advocated such. The scorer is supposed to be a neutral member of the officiating crew. Occasionally these people screw up and fail to do their job properly, but that doesn't mean that a team cannot be penalized later when the infraction is discovered. That is only true for situations when the penalty part of the rule states "while being violated."

I love how you write that my citations are completely irrelevant, yet then accuse me of advocating that officials fail to follow the rules as written.

I'm clearly advocating that officials enforce the rules which I cited as written.

BillyMac Tue Aug 17, 2010 05:55pm

Apples and Oranges ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 689002)
There are two issues here.
1. a team member who participates is not listed on team roster supplied to the scorer prior to the game.
2. a team member wears an illegal uniform while participating
These two infractions have nothing to do with each other. There is no way that the rules call for only one technical foul for both infractions.

I gotta agree with Nevaderef here.

Here's a section of a paragraph from my article that states my interpretation:

After the ten minute time limit a team is charged with a maximum of one technical foul regardless of how many infractions of the following are committed: changing a designated starter, adding a name to the team member list, requiring the scorer to change a team member’s or player’s number in the scorebook, requiring a player to change to the number in the scorebook, and/or having identical numbers on team members and/or players.

Note that illegal uniforms (illegal numbers) aren't mentioned in the section. They are mentioned here, again my interpretation:

Technical fouls for illegal uniforms (including illegal numbers) are not charged to the team, but are charged directly to the head coach. If a team member participates as a player while wearing an illegal uniform, then a direct technical foul is charged to the head coach, who will lose the coaching box privilege for the remainder of the game. This infraction is penalized when discovered, and the team member with the illegal uniform may participate without further penalty and is not required to change the number. A maximum of one technical foul shall be charged directly to the head coach regardless of the number of offenders.

In addition, technical fouls for changing a designated starter, adding a name to the team member list, requiring the scorer to change a team member’s or player’s number in the scorebook, requiring a player to change to the number in the scorebook, and/or having identical numbers on team members and/or players, are charged to the team. Technical fouls for illegal uniforms (illegal numbers) are charged directly to the head coach.

Jurassic Referee Tue Aug 17, 2010 06:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 689002)

I'm clearly advocating that officials enforce the rules which I cited as written.

Cool. Now tell me how we enforce rules 2-11-1&2. Just exactly what are we supposed to do if the scorer doesn't fulfil all of his obligations under those rules. And also please supply rules citations to back up what you tell us to do in that situation.

And tell me again why we are supposed to ignore a plainly written FED case play and do something that's completely contradictory to that case play just because you don't happen to agree with that case play. You seemed to ignore that little detail quite nicely in your response.

BillyMac Tue Aug 17, 2010 06:31pm

Illegal Or Duplicate ???
 
I'm still finalizing my article and trying to make sure that everything is correct before I submit it.

Today at work I was thinking about whether or not there was a "statue of limitations" on duplicate numbers. I recalled that when I first learned the rules about thirty years ago we learned that technical fouls for illegal numbers can only be charged if the player with the illegal number actually participates in the game as one of the five players on the court. We also learned that technical fouls for duplicate numbers can be charged at any time after the ten minute mark, even if the player with the duplicate number never participates as one of the five players in the game. Then I started thinking about a case play that I remembered dealing with the "duplicate" numbers 0 and 00, and that technical fouls could only be charged if both 0 or 00 participated as one of the five players in the game. When I got home I looked up the case play and discovered that 0 and 0 are not "duplicate" numbers (although computer scorebooks treat then as duplicate numbers), but rather, they are "illegal" numbers, with the only catch being that when the second "zero" participates as one of the five players in the game, the second "zero" is the illegal number.

Here's the case play:

2008-09 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 2: A team has members with No. 0 and No. 00 listed in the scorebook and it is discovered (a) with 14 minutes on the clock prior to the game, (b) with 8 minutes on the clock prior to the game or (c) after the game starts. RULING: In (a), changes can be made without penalty. In (b), if a number is changed in the scorebook, a team technical is charged. The offended team is awarded two free throws and a throw-in at the division line to begin the game. The arrow is toward the offending team. If no changes are made to the scorebook, no infraction has occurred. In (c), after the game starts, there is no infraction if only one of the team members (No. 0 or No. 00) participates. If the second team member wishes to participate, the result is an illegal number when "discovered." The penalty is a direct technical foul on the head coach for an illegal uniform. Two free throws and a division line throw-in for the offended team and loss of coaching box privileges for the offending coach. The second team member (with the illegal uniform number) may participate without further penalty and is NOT required to change his/her number. Another possibility exists after the game starts when one of the team members wants to change his/her number prior to participating. The result is a team technical foul (no loss of coaching box) for changing the scorebook. COMMENT: No team should have both No. 0 and No. 00 on its regular roster. The infraction is likely due to bringing a player up or down a level. Therefore, it is possible the team has access to other legal uniforms to replace a uniform with an illegal number. (3-4-3d; 10-1-2; 10-5-4)

I guess what they say is true, "You can learn something every day". I also guess that, contrary to what they say, "You can teach an old dog new tricks".

just another ref Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 689002)
I'm clearly advocating that officials enforce the rules which I cited as written.

I agree that there are two possible infractions which may be penalized independently in the discussion at hand. But, like JR, I don't understand why you list rule 2-11 as a reference. Scorer's duties. There is no penalty if the scorer is incompetent, blind, drunk, or not there at all.

BillyMac Wed Aug 18, 2010 06:36am

Nitpicking ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 689002)
A team member who participates is not listed on team roster supplied to the scorer prior to the game.

Let's be careful here, especially for our rookie officials. The penalty is not for the team member participating, but rather, for the scorer having to add the name to the scorebook.

Here's my interpretation:

If a team adds a name to the team roster after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. When such a player legally enters the court, the player’s name and uniform number must be entered into the official scorebook. In order to penalize this infraction, the offending team member must be one of the five players currently in the game ... If there is no request for change, or if a team member does not become a player, thus avoiding the change, there is no penalty ... These infractions occur when the scorer is advised to add to or change the official scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball becomes live, after such changes have been made to the scorebook, it is too late to penalize.

sseltser Wed Aug 18, 2010 07:05am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 689043)
Let's be careful here, especially for our rookie officials. The penalty is not for the team member participating, but rather, for the scorer having to add the name to the scorebook.

Here's my interpretation:

If a team adds a name to the team roster after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. When such a player legally enters the court, the player’s name and uniform number must be entered into the official scorebook. In order to penalize this infraction, the offending team member must be one of the five players currently in the game ... If there is no request for change, or if a team member does not become a player, thus avoiding the change, there is no penalty ... These infractions occur when the scorer is advised to add to or change the official scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball becomes live, after such changes have been made to the scorebook, it is too late to penalize.

Billy, not sure where you stand on your essay for the membership of your board, but to be complete, you may want to add the caveat that the team's requirement is to supply the scorer with the proper roster, and, if the official book needs to be changed after the 10:00 minute mark, but it is because of an error by the scorer in copying the roster that was supplied, then no penalty should be assessed.

Eastshire Wed Aug 18, 2010 08:34am

Just to toss two cents in:

I think illegal numbers is the only type of illegal uniforms you could reasonable go back in time to penalize.

If A16 is listed in the scorebook, his participation will be a matter of fact when the scorer marks the book that he participated in a given quarter. So we have in the official scorebook a record of both his participation and his illegal number.

For other uniform violations, we would have no record of whether the uniform was illegal while the player was participating.

BillyMac Wed Aug 18, 2010 04:41pm

Got It Already, Thanks ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sseltser (Post 689044)
Billy, not sure where you stand on your essay for the membership of your board, but to be complete, you may want to add the caveat that the team's requirement is to supply the scorer with the proper roster, and, if the official book needs to be changed after the 10:00 minute mark, but it is because of an error by the scorer in copying the roster that was supplied, then no penalty should be assessed.

Some administrative infraction technical foul situations can occur before the jump ball is even tossed. If a team fails to supply the official scorer with its roster, and/or designate its five starting players at least ten minutes before the scheduled starting time, then a team technical foul is charged.

Camron Rust Wed Aug 18, 2010 05:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 689048)
Just to toss two cents in:
For other uniform violations, we would have no record of whether the uniform was illegal while the player was participating.

Are you suggesting that someone would/could change the color of thier jersey during the game or remove an illegal trim, side panel, number style, etc.?

Adam Wed Aug 18, 2010 05:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 689129)
Are you suggesting that someone would/could change the color of thier jersey during the game or remove an illegal trim, side panel, number style, etc.?

1. Switch from the JV shirt into the varsity shirt he was supposed to be wearing. Same number.
2. He goes to the locker room injured and returns in street clothes.

Camron Rust Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 689132)
1. Switch from the JV shirt into the varsity shirt he was supposed to be wearing. Same number.
2. He goes to the locker room injured and returns in street clothes.

The point was that you don't really need a "record" of the switch....you only need to realize that it was illegal. Perhaps you remember the specifics of the rules later in the game.

Eastshire Thu Aug 19, 2010 04:13am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 689153)
The point was that you don't really need a "record" of the switch....you only need to realize that it was illegal. Perhaps you remember the specifics of the rules later in the game.

You're going to call a T after the expiration of the 4th quarter for an illegal uniform allegedly worn in the first quarter in a 1 point game without iron-clad proof? I'm not (and I'm going to try to avoid calling it even with the proof since it's been such a long time since the offense occurred). Just because the uniform the player is wearing now is illegal is no guarantee that he was wearing that uniform when he participated and it's not a foul to wear an illegal uniform on the bench.

Nevadaref Thu Aug 19, 2010 06:23am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 689158)
You're going to call a T after the expiration of the 4th quarter for an illegal uniform allegedly worn in the first quarter in a 1 point game without iron-clad proof? I'm not (and I'm going to try to avoid calling it even with the proof since it's been such a long time since the offense occurred). Just because the uniform the player is wearing now is illegal is no guarantee that he was wearing that uniform when he participated and it's not a foul to wear an illegal uniform on the bench.

If the official does his job and takes a look while the kid is in the game or is entering the game, then this doesn't become a big problem later.

Eastshire Thu Aug 19, 2010 06:25am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 689160)
If the official does his job and takes a look while the kid is in the game or is entering the game, then this doesn't become a big problem later.

Most things are easier if we do them right in the first place. However, we were taking as a given that that it was missed when it happened and only discovered later.

Camron Rust Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 689158)
You're going to call a T after the expiration of the 4th quarter for an illegal uniform allegedly worn in the first quarter in a 1 point game without iron-clad proof? I'm not (and I'm going to try to avoid calling it even with the proof since it's been such a long time since the offense occurred). Just because the uniform the player is wearing now is illegal is no guarantee that he was wearing that uniform when he participated and it's not a foul to wear an illegal uniform on the bench.

No. We're talking about the rule, not what I'd actually call.

That said, I don't even agree that the rule allows you to go back in time at all....just discussing the ramifications as if it did.

Eastshire Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 689221)
No. We're talking about the rule, not what I'd actually call.

That said, I don't even agree that the rule allows you to go back in time at all....just discussing the ramifications as if it did.

But that's my point, other than an illegal number (which presumably matches the number in the book), you have a player now wearing an illegal uniform who did participate but there's no way of knowing if he was wearing an illegal uniform when he participated. Ergo, no discovery and no penalty.

Camron Rust Thu Aug 19, 2010 01:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 689223)
But that's my point, other than an illegal number (which presumably matches the number in the book), you have a player now wearing an illegal uniform who did participate but there's no way of knowing if he was wearing an illegal uniform when he participated. Ergo, no discovery and no penalty.

You have it backwards.....you realized that the jersey they had on when they were in was illegal (you remember it had a bunch of decorative symbols all across the numbers but, for whatever reason, failed to address it when they were participating). Can you now penalize that?

Eastshire Thu Aug 19, 2010 01:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 689227)
You have it backwards.....you realized that the jersey they had on when they were in was illegal (you remember it had a bunch of decorative symbols all across the numbers but, for whatever reason, failed to address it when they were participating). Can you now penalize that?

Can you as a matter of rule? Yes. You just now discovered it. Now, as a matter of reality, is your memory really strong enough to reach back through 4 quarters to remember exactly what a single player was wearing and realize now, but not then, there was something wrong with it? I submit the answer to that is no.

But that's not the scenario we were discussing at all.

Camron Rust Thu Aug 19, 2010 01:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 689228)
Can you as a matter of rule? Yes. You just now discovered it. Now, as a matter of reality, is your memory really strong enough to reach back through 4 quarters to remember exactly what a single player was wearing and realize now, but not then, there was something wrong with it? I submit the answer to that is no.

But that's not the scenario we were discussing at all.

Sure it is...the question whether a player who wore an illegal uniform in the 1st quarter and hasn't played since (or somehow made the uniform legal) can be penalized in the 4th quarter no matter why the uniform was illegal. If you can penalize due to an illegal number, you can penalize for any other illegal uniform issues. There is no requirement that the infraction be documented.

That said, I maintain that the rules change that moved the responsibility to the coach and limited it to a single T per game really didn't intend to change the "statue-of-limitations" on this rule.....which, if I am correct, means you couldn't penalize anything regarding uniforms after the ball becomes live as the player enters teh game.

Eastshire Thu Aug 19, 2010 01:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 689230)
Sure it is...the question whether a player who wore an illegal uniform in the 1st quarter and hasn't played since (or somehow made the uniform legal) can be penalized in the 4th quarter no matter why the uniform was illegal. If you can penalize due to an illegal number, you can penalize for any other illegal uniform issues. There is no requirement that the infraction be documented.

Our scenario was Team B's head coach pointing out an illegal number, not the official suddenly remembering an illegal uniform. The important distinction here for me is the fact that the illegal number is in the scorebook.

Quote:

That said, I maintain that the rules change that moved the responsibility to the coach and limited it to a single T per game really didn't intend to change the "statue-of-limitations" on this rule.....which, if I am correct, means you couldn't penalize anything regarding uniforms after the fact at all.
I would tend to agree that it didn't intend to change it, but it does appear to have changed it. The best solution, I agree, is to reinstate the limitation.

Raymond Thu Aug 19, 2010 02:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 689160)
If the official does his job and takes a look while the kid is in the game or is entering the game, then this doesn't become a big problem later.

The same could be said about correctable errors, but those situations still happen.

Adam Thu Aug 19, 2010 05:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 689153)
The point was that you don't really need a "record" of the switch....you only need to realize that it was illegal. Perhaps you remember the specifics of the rules later in the game.

To me, "proof" is my own ability to verify with my eyes. If it's missed, and the problem is fixed, there's no way I can verify later.

Camron Rust Thu Aug 19, 2010 06:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 689256)
To me, "proof" is my own ability to verify with my eyes. If it's missed, and the problem is fixed, there's no way I can verify later.

Your solution is faulty. Who's to say that such a player, knowing they were not going to play after the half, didn't change to a ceremonial/decorative jersey at halftime. What you see them in on the bench is no indication that they were wearing that earlier. If you are going to call something for an illegal unifrom on someone who played eariler in the game, you must depend on your memory. (But again, I think the rule implies that it must be discovered while they are participating).

Judtech Thu Aug 19, 2010 09:42pm

Wow 4 pages on something that really doesn't have much to do with how a game is decided. Just my soap box, along with the head band, hair restraints, sock logo's, width of stripe etc. Uggghh. Jewelry and rubber bands on wrists I get, but why is it our/my responsibility to make sure a uniform, purchased by an athletic department, from an equipment manufacturer with money and resorces is 'legal'
I know we were talking about numbers etc, but I just felt the need to vent. Carry on!

Besides, I always thought the unitards that NC State wore 'back in the day' should have been declared illegal.

Scrapper1 Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:13am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judtech (Post 689273)
Besides, I always thought the unitards that NC State wore 'back in the day' should have been declared illegal.

I believe they lasted exactly one game. Which was one game too many.

BillyMac Mon Aug 23, 2010 05:44pm

1989 NC State Unitard ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Judtech (Post 689273)
I always thought the unitards that NC State wore 'back in the day' should have been declared illegal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 689668)
I believe they lasted exactly one game. Which was one game too many.

http://assets.sbnation.com/imported_...ni_unitard.jpg


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