I can count the number of technical fouls I had last season on one hand. I think I had 3, although I stopped counting them years ago. Of those three, I wish I had called one earlier.

I *hate* technical fouls the same way I hate baseball ejections. It doesn't mean I won't issue them.

Back to the thread: I have always used a simple "that's 5" while holding up what is essentially a stop sign. If a sub is at the table, I'll say, "is he for 21?" If yes, on we go. If not, I start a clock. I make a serious effort to take care of this administrative business and ignore anything else that's going on at this point, which is easier if you stay a good distance from the coach (the division line lets you deal with both the table and the coach.

In this thread, we've gotten hung up on this little detail, but I don't think this subtle change in wording would've helped Billy in the OP -- the coach decided, for whatever reason, to push the envelope and there's no reason to think that in the waning moments of a 30 point blowout that the coach, who'd been quiet up to this point was going to act any different.

At this point, I probably would've not issued a technical foul, said something along the lines of "I'm sorry you feel that way," and got the hell out of there. I don't have to stand there while the coach gives me a sub. If we get to 20 seconds and there's no sub at the table, then it's an easy technical foul. With 30 seconds left in the game, the coach may want to say his piece, but I don't have to give him an audience. If this conversation started in the second quarter, well, then we'd have to deal with it, I suppose.

Of course, if this is summer ball, I'm more likely to respond in a different way. I'm talking about how I'd handle it in a game where I'm wearing long pants and the coach isn't some dad pretending to be a coach.

Is this really necessary? If 21 has to go out, and a sub is there, that sub is for 21. The coach is free to then send another sub if he wishes.

Why is that sub for the dq'ed player? The coach has an allotted amount of time to sub for the dq'ed player, and just assuming - or forcing as it seems you would do - a sub who is already at the table is for the dq'ed player set your crew up for some problems.

Follow the mechanic. Inform the coach (in a very clear manner), inform the player...if there is a sub, ask the question. If the answer is yes, bring the sub in and away we go. If the answer is no, start the time.

Because the dq'ed player is the one who has to leave. The official is required to notify the coach of the disqualification. The coach is required to replace the disqualified player. Is anything else required? If, upon notification, a sub is already standing ready to enter, it seems like a situation that will work itself out from there. Asking
"Is he for the dq'ed player?" seems likely to provoke a hostile or sarcastic response.

"Who the hell else would he be for?!" :rolleyes::rolleyes:

+1. Exactly how I do it.

I've always asked the question when there's a sub there, and I've never had the response you suggest. If I did, we'd be shooting an extra set of free throws.

Whoever the hell else the coach wanted out of the game before the foul was called.

Just because #11 had 5 fouls doesn't mean the sub that was ALREADY at the table is for #11. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Exactly! That is why it makes sense to ASK the question:

Official: "Is the sub for 11, he has 5, COACH."
Coach: "Yes" or "No"

As opposed to TELLING the coach something he most likely ALREADY knows (if you work higher level games):

Official: "11 has 5 fouls, COACH."
Coach: "You dont say!" or "Yeah, thats why my sub is sitting there genius."

In my opinion (if we are allowed to have one w/out being crucified) it shows that you are truly managing the ballgame by ASKING the question (to the COACH).

Personally, I like to ask COACHES direct questions to get short, direct answers. Going to coaches with vague statements can lead to additional conversation that increases the chances of doing paperwork.

I see some officials understood exactly what I meant, but hey, big picture officiating aint for everybody! Some of us just run up & down the court, blowing the whistle, obviously.

The exceptional official can chew bubblegum & walk at the same time. He/she tries to be aware when subs are:

1. Headed to the table during live play.
2. When they are already at the table prior to the whistle.
3. When they sprint to the table after a whistle.

The game within the game!

You are correct. It's not. And the ones with egos bigger than their abilities usually find that out the hard way.

As far as asking the Coach a question rather than telling the coach a player is dq'ed - fine. Go for it. It will work most of the time. When it doesn't, it will get ugly and will be a learning experience.

JAR - you cannot assume that the Coach wants that sub in for the dq'ed player. Especially if that sub is already at the table.

Information must be given.

done

We must have a sub.

done

I'd just rather let the coach work out the additional details. It's never been a problem for me before.

I actually had a situation where a partner went overboard dealing with this very situation.

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...-player-2.html

He didn't go overboard, he underperformed, IMO, by not asking the coach; per the NFHS ruling which you seem to be ignoring here.

Yeah I see it every fall rockyroad, they used to walk tall & belittle others because they were good friends with such & such and got the opportunity to work NCAA ball, now they're back fighting to get the good HS games :rolleyes:
Since that lil jab was directed at me, for the record my mindset is:
1. Game
2. Partner
3. Myself
I only throw resumes around when internet thugs belittle me.

Well, thanks for your approval sir! I feel so much better now that you've checked off on what works for me. ROTFLMAO

Isnt learning what it's all about?

tref - so, help us poor, unfortunate souls who just run up and down the court, to understand the big picture of officiating as you know it.

If a coach really wants to give you a smart-a$$ comment, what makes you so sure your way avoids those? What do you do if you ask a coach if the sub is for #11, and the coach asks you back, "Who the hell do you think it's for?", or, "Oh, I don't know tref, I was thinking about putting him in for #55 to go smaller, but now I'm not so sure. What do you think I should do?" (While the assistant is talking to the rest of the team during this unofficial timeout), or, perhaps, just doesn't say anything at all, and just looks at you? How long do you look back at him? What do you say to the other coach who's asking you why it's taking longer than 20 seconds to make the replacement?

All of the above have happened either to me or to officials I know. I have no problem with communicating with coaches, but in my experience, in a situation where there could be a potential confrontation, it's best to follow the prescribed mechanics. If you follow the rules and mechanics, and something goes wrong, it's easy to see the fault would lie with the coach or player. If you do something different and outside the prescribed mechanics, and it backfires, then whose fault is it?

You still have yet to respond to our pointing out several times your comment about not needing to tell the coach anything. Was that a mis-statement on your part, or do you still feel that way? If you feel it's not appropriate to inform the coach, do you have any backup to support that position, such as a rule, case, mechanic's manual page, NFHS or NCAA statement, association handout, memo from a league or assignor, etc.?

Agreed -- and wasn't the OP where "the sub was already at the table?"

Even if it's your item 3, I confirm it (not "are you for #21?" but "you're for #21, right?")

Actually it really wasn't directed at you personally....more directed at the attitude you were "displaying".

And of course learning is what it is all about. Always. And there are lots of things to learn from the discussions on this board.

And not very many people on this board really give a rat's a$$ about anyone's resume - including their own.

Come on now, I never said THAT!

You know there's no absolutes or always in what we do. For me it minimizes the chances of conflict.

Take care of business!

"Jane, will you give me 20 seconds on the clock please."


I agree M&M! That would be the officials fault... personally, I like to have rules support for each & everything I do on the court.

Mis-statement on my part, mis-interpretation on your part, call it what you like, but I've NEVER felt that way.
My point was asking (THE COACH) vs. telling (THE COACH) is a more in-tuned to the GAME way to go on DQs with a player AT the table. AND it still satisfies our responsibilities. Maybe I'm wrong (dont have my books with me) but aren't we supposed to "notify" the HC. We can notify someone in the form of a question or a direct statement, or no?

Yes sir, thats why its important to KNOW when/how he arrived at the table.
For the record, I dont ask sub any questions, I would ask the coach.

I can dig it!! And you are right, my attitude did turn quite sour after being picked on by the school bully & his gang. I apologize to the board for my part!! I know damn well that I shouldnt be arguing with fools... people at a distance cant tell who's who.

I cant lie, I'm proud of the accomplishments I've achieved in a such a short amount of time. I enjoy life in the fast lane!!

Except for Rock, I have worked many games with him and at the start of every game he hands a resume to each coach. Before you know it the game is over and the coaches have just finished reading. :D:D

1) Sooooo, I take it it that you don't agree with the dildo that said "There is no reason to let the coach know it's the fifth."? Correct?

2) :D
Just :D

Dildo? That's funny! Is it P/C? No, but funny nonetheless especially since I get a lot of what the dildos get. You must be at the "edible-only" stages in your life. :cool:

Actually JR, if you read this in its entirety you will see what I truly said in post #47 on Friday:

3. Im AT the table & see a sub there... no reason to let the coach know its the 5th. Thats why the sub is there!! Asking if the sub is for the player w/ 5 makes more sense to me.

Again, letting COACH know vs. asking COACH. Either way, we have completed our responsibilities by notifying the coach.

Lets turn the page...

If one were to try to ascertain your opinion based on this post, tref, he would be left believing you don't think there's a need to talk to the coach; as you could simply ask the sub whom he is replacing.
Now, reading all your posts in this thread, it's obvious that you simply misspoke in that particular post.

Again, if you are afraid of possible inappropriate interaction from the coach, why are you asking him a question, which implies and requires a response, rather than simply informing/telling the coach?

Yeah, you are right Snaqs! I misspoke & boy did they ever run with it. I will make it a point to say exactly what I mean in the future, the elderly seem to get lost quick.

1. If a official is afraid, he/she needs to retire. My swag suggest to all involved in a contest that I am running the contest & there is nothing that can happen that I cant handle.

2. The way I ask it, along with my body language gives me the results I'm looking for 95% of the time. A one word answer from coach... "yes" or "no".
Informing him (with a player already at the table) got me what Billy got once before. I learned from it & choose not to go that route again.

What works for you is great & what works for me is great, because it works for US individually!

Whats the big deal?

Gee, the "elderly" took what you said literally and believed you. Bad "elderly"! Bad, bad "elderly"!!

The "elderly" won't make the same mistake again of believing what you say in the future. We just won't take seriously anything much that you say.

Nothing really changes, eh Ch!town? You haven't changed one bit, even with your new name. Same old, same old......:)

Smart-a$$. :D

Wouldn't that be interesting with a few of them, tho???:p

Good point... because none of us has EVER seen multiple substitutions at the same time... :rolleyes:

I've read all this drivel waiting for someone to point out the obvious, but no one did.

So ... you have 11 come in for 5, and 2 minutes later he tries to insert 5 again. You tell him 5 has fouled out and he says, "You never told me he had five!" Not telling the coach, in the manner you are supposed to tell him, is ASKING, if not BEGGING for trouble.

In my experience, people that type their own joke and ROTF or LOL are the same guy as the annoying guffawing buffoon making everyone else uncomfortable or annoyed at the family picnics and post-season parties.

Seems like you don't have any problem calling names, do you? So, how old is "elderly", and how old am I?

So, what happens that other 5%? What if I told you my method works 99.8% of the time? Would you be willing to switch to my way of thinking? I can run a stop sign and 95% of the time, nothing bad will happen. Does that make it right?

So, you did it the right way, and the coach made a smart-a$$ comment? So what? I thought with your swag and body language that wouldn't happen? But, since it did, did you take care of business? Or, are you saying that coach that day forced you to do things differently from that point on? How strong of an official are you the a coach's incorrect actions forced you to do things incorrectly from that point on?

You keep mentioning things like your illuminating personality as your reasons for doing the things you do, while some of us "elderly folks" keep mentioning things like rules and mechanics. Kind of like them pesky traffic rules, right? As long as the other folks at the stop sign see the swag, they'll know to keep out of our way, right? ;)

Read his post again, just the part that you quoted. His question to the coach is followed immediately by "he has five". He is informing the coach.

I care about YOU believing me like, NOT AT ALL.

Change? I've improved a lil' bit & I mentioned the name change before, so dont try to paint it like I got ran & tried to come in fresh.

Reading is fundamental...
LMAO (cause you're funny) No pile ons over here, keep it movin!
TIP: Learn to read before you try to clown.

I do unto others as they have done unto me FIRST. Key word = FIRST
And, IDGAF

I already said, what works for you is GREAT, because it works for YOU!

Disagree, I did it that way & it didn't work, so I tried another method & its been good to ME! Who are you to say whats right & wrong? The coach was notified that the player has 5, point blank, PERIOD!
My negative experience with "duh coach, #11 has 5 fouls" happened back in '07, I had no idea of what my court presence said back then. I started watching video in 08 & thats when I corrected some flaws & developed some swag.

Isn't it sad how a few have made an assumption about what tref meant and simply can not concede that their interpretation of his words was wrong. trefs post may very well have been a bit ambiguous but was made VERY clear a long time ago that the question being asked was not directed to the popcorn guy but to the coach. Once that clarification was made, the discusison was really over...yet some can't allow for for the possibility of themselves misreading his post. :rolleyes:

There was absolutely nothing wrong with what he posted aside from it not spelling out who he was talking to. You simply assumed (incorrectly) who he was talking to.

Appreciate it Camron & its good to see that the entire board didn't mis-read me.

On a positive note, this has made me realize that I need to improve my overall communication skills, even more!! At the levels I aspire to work, saying what you mean & meaning what you say is so crucial. So this debate OR smackdown (whatever they think they accomplished) shined the light on what I need to do to make myself a better official.

Every situation serves a purpose, it's up to us to figure it out.

Not in his original post though. There is NO mention of "he has five" in that one. Au contraire, he flatly stated that that "there is no reason to inform the coach that it's the fifth.".

You can't have it both ways. If he admits that he "misspoke", you can't blame that on people who believed what he wrote originally.

Kinda funny that the name change and a few other of your posting gems have now disappeared into the ether, ain't it, Ch!town? :D

Same old, same old......:rolleyes:

I dont know what you're talking about, for the 3rd & last time, I changed my email addy last year & could not login under Ch1town. I could not contact any moderators, so I created another profile to participate in the forum.
I have NOT deleted anything... its really not that crucial (to me).

This place is very informative & I've learned so much here! In addition to other programs I am in, this place is very instrumental in my development.

You say misspoke. I say realized what an idiot he was and changed his story. Tomato Tomahto.

Sorry, you've got the order of events wrong, it seems. He misspoke in post #47, he said to say "he has five" in post #43. I'd quote them for you, but that would border on snarky.

I put the initial confusion on tref, but let me put it this way:

We often give the benefit of the doubt to long time posters when they (meaning I) misspeak on something, based on what we know about their knowledge and history of posting. Why, then, when someone repeatedly clarifies (albeit with some serious snark) his meaning, do we zero in on one little tidbit that is, when taken in the context of the entire thread, an obvious misstatement?

Then again, if I'm wrong, it wouln't be the first crappy call I made this summer.

I could go with that if he hadn't first said it correctly only to follow up with a misstatement.

OK, I'm done with this. tref is a big boy and can handle his own.

First of all, I really want the NUTMEG t-shirt. I know it is a state pride sort of thing, but I also have a Fighting Blue Hen T-Shirt from Deleware, and who doesn't own a S. Carolina Gamecock item?!??!!!
I would go with "Coach, that's the 5th on 11, is this their sub?" If the coach gets a little snarky, I'd say something like "Well, just thought I would ask". Several times the coach will just answer YES without thinking and we can get the game restarted quicker. Then a few minutes later, the coach realizes that they wanted SOMEONE ELSE to go in then subs that player in the game.

Know what? If tref/Ch!town simply hadda said that he "misspoke" right after being questioned about post #47 instead of waiting until post #125 three days later, we might not have gone through all this crap. We could have given him the benefit of the doubt then and this thread could have died a well-deserved death at that time. And please note for the record, I sureasheck ain't the only one that took what he said on post #47 at face value. That post and his "clarifications" since then have been questioned by some other posters whose officiating knowledge I have a great deal of respect for.

And you are right. It is time for all of us to be done with this one also imho.:)

Apologies To Gomez Addams ...
 

"Jurassic Referee!, when you speak French, it drives me wild, Cara Mia!"

http://thm-a03.yimg.com/nimage/3fc0b59c1c54a062

Tone ...
 

Not word for word, but this is pretty much what happened to me in the original post that started this thread. And he said it with the most sarcastic, obnoxious, smart-alec, tone. That's what led to the warning from me right before he got his first technical foul. Maybe the second technical foul could have been handled a different way, but he definitely deserved a "that's enough" warning and the the first technical foul. No coach is going to talk to me, or my partner, in that tone.

Nice Post ...
 

Agree.

And where is this located?

Originally Posted by tref
"Is the sub for 11, he has 5, COACH."


And I'm the idiot... ok :rolleyes:

Well, Billy, time for us to beat you down for not accurately depicting the coach's tone in your original post.

Just admit you mis-spoke and we will only beat you down for 1 day. :D

Nevada posted it in the original thread you just linked.