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tomegun Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:35am

This past weekend in Vegas
 
I have never seen so much basketball in Vegas at one time. I had the daunting task of assigning more than 20 courts for three tournaments at the same time. I didn't make it to 1/4 of the courts I assigned, but this is what I took from the weekend:

  • There are a lot of good officials out there - both good on the court and good people
  • There are a lot of U1s and U2s out there; I was amazed at how many calls I got about issues that could have been handled without my intervention.
  • On the flip side, one official sent me a text message and said, "I ejected a coach. He was being belligerent and disrespectful. blah, blah, blah." My response: good job.
  • I can't believe how many officials were late, no shows and/or out of uniform. Especially when the guy I worked for clearly communicated fines.
  • The only time I was able to relax was when I was on the court officiating.
  • Many officials have a seriously inflated opinion of their abilities. I hope some of them realized they were in over their heads and I cannot let that happen again next year regardless of what I think of them as people.
  • Many officials lack integrity and think other people, me in this case, are stupid. Uh, I don't think so.
  • My cell phone was blowing up all weekend! I'm almost at my monthly limit of 1500 text messages and my billing cycle doesn't end until the 16th. Yikes!
  • Basketball is a great sport.
One official from this board was going to come and work, but something happened and he was unable to make it. Word on the street was that Nevada was in town, but he was working another tournament and I didn't see him or talk to him.

Mark Padgett Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:48am

It sounded pretty stressful but think about how nice and cool it was outside. ;)

Jay R Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:53am

I was also involved (as an official only) in a big tournament in our area. Every year, it's a struggle to get enough guys and gals to officiate this tourney.

Here are some of my observations:
- The level of play was strong with a few exceptions
- Most officials were doing so many games (3-4 games a day of good quality high school age and one older division) that it's difficult to stay sharp
- Most officials worked hard and were professional
- A couple were an embarassment to our avocation
- One official stopped to talk to a fan during play; on a drive to the basket, his partner had to call a foul from the trail because buddy wasn't looking at the play (this guy should not be officiating but that's what happens when you don't have the numbers)
- Myself, I had a great weekend of mostly good ball and a nice paycheck to take home.

tomegun Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:07am

Wow, your only concern with number of games were officials doing 3-4? One of my biggest struggles was officials wanting to come here and make a lot of money. With travel and lodging it is difficult - some officials wanted me to give them 8-10 games a day. By last night I could see officials struggling. I know this is driven by the economy, but I will have strict standards next year. I don't know how they do it; I did four games yesterday and I was tired (I didn't plan on doing four, but when I asked the site director if he wanted three-man for the last four games I was the only official there so I had to do the first two of those last four).

The other problem I had was officials thinking they could receive games from me and assign them or that they were the leader of their group that came with them. Some of those officials will not be back; I have someone I'm accountable to and I have to know what is going on.

Judtech Mon Jul 26, 2010 01:39pm

Heck, if you had had it in April I could have helped out. I would have done it for a free buffet and/or show ticket!!
Although it appears you did violate the first rule of the Las Vegas Chamber of Commerce. What happened in Vegas apparently didn't stay in Vegas!!:D

bainsey Mon Jul 26, 2010 01:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomegun (Post 686629)
[*]There are a lot of U1s and U2s out there; I was amazed at how many calls I got about issues that could have been handled without my intervention.

Some clarity, please. Are you talking about umpires in a three-man crew, or do "U1 & U2" have another meaning?

BktBallRef Mon Jul 26, 2010 02:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 686659)
Some clarity, please. Are you talking about umpires in a three-man crew, or do "U1 & U2" have another meaning?

He's referring to officials who are assigned as U1 or U2 in a three man crew becasue they don't yet have the experience, knowledge, know-how- or people skills to be the referee (the man who has all those qualities and can handle a situation before it gets pushed back to the assignor.

dahoopref Mon Jul 26, 2010 02:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 686659)
Some clarity, please. Are you talking about umpires in a three-man crew, or do "U1 & U2" have another meaning?

I believe Tome is referring that 2 of the officials on the crew did not have an "R" mentality in order to "take care of business" on the floor. An "R" (aka "A Lead") is a leader and steps up to handle any problems/situations that arise.

Raymond Mon Jul 26, 2010 03:03pm

tom, I'll be out there in September. Got anything going on the weekend after Labor Day?

Camron Rust Mon Jul 26, 2010 03:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 686661)
He's referring to officials who are assigned as U1 or U2 in a three man crew becasue they don't yet have the experience, knowledge, know-how- or people skills to be the referee (the man who has all those qualities and can handle a situation before it gets pushed back to the assignor.


I'm guessing he might have even been talking about people who were assigned to the R position but acted like a U1/U2.

tomegun Mon Jul 26, 2010 04:24pm

It can be all of the above, but in this case it was simply calling me on the phone for dumb stuff. This really applies for many occupations. It is like someone who always has to ask versus someone who knows what to do and may or may not back brief.

BNR, I'm thinking the only thing we will have at that time is Men's Rec. July was definitely the month to come out. NBA scrimmages, Euro League tryouts, huge high AAU tournaments. It was like Boo Williams on steroids.

Judtech Mon Jul 26, 2010 04:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomegun (Post 686687)
It can be all of the above, but in this case it was simply calling me on the phone for dumb stuff. This really applies for many occupations. It is like someone who always has to ask versus someone who knows what to do and may or may not back brief.

BNR, I'm thinking the only thing we will have at that time is Men's Rec. July was definitely the month to come out. NBA scrimmages, Euro League tryouts, huge high AAU tournaments. It was like Boo Williams on steroids.

I believe Boo has passed all of his random HGH screenings!!!:D

Mark Padgett Mon Jul 26, 2010 05:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomegun (Post 686687)
It can be all of the above, but in this case it was simply calling me on the phone for dumb stuff. This really applies for many occupations. It is like someone who always has to ask versus someone who knows what to do and may or may not back brief.

BNR, I'm thinking the only thing we will have at that time is Men's Wreakage. July was definitely the month to come out. NBA scrimmages, Euro League tryouts, huge high AAU tournaments. It was like Boo Williams on steroids.

Fixed it for ya'.

Nevadaref Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:02pm

Just for the record
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tomegun (Post 686629)
Word on the street was that Nevada was in town, but he was working another tournament and I didn't see him or talk to him.

That rumor is 100% NOT true.

Had I been able to make it down there, I most certainly would have worked for you. Unfortunately, I had other business this past weekend and this week which prevented me from traveling.

I haven't been to Vegas since March.

grunewar Tue Jul 27, 2010 05:31am

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomegun (Post 686640)
some officials wanted me to give them 8-10 games a day.

Padgett was in town?

GoodwillRef Tue Jul 27, 2010 06:04am

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomegun (Post 686640)
Wow, your only concern with number of games were officials doing 3-4? One of my biggest struggles was officials wanting to come here and make a lot of money. With travel and lodging it is difficult - some officials wanted me to give them 8-10 games a day. By last night I could see officials struggling. I know this is driven by the economy, but I will have strict standards next year. I don't know how they do it; I did four games yesterday and I was tired (I didn't plan on doing four, but when I asked the site director if he wanted three-man for the last four games I was the only official there so I had to do the first two of those last four).

The other problem I had was officials thinking they could receive games from me and assign them or that they were the leader of their group that came with them. Some of those officials will not be back; I have someone I'm accountable to and I have to know what is going on.

We have guys in our area that also want to work 8-10 games in a day and they are walking up and down the court during game #1! An official that has respect for himself and the game (IMO) will not work more than four games in a day.

Zoochy Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:12am

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef (Post 686732)
We have guys in our area that also want to work 8-10 games in a day and they are walking up and down the court during game #1! An official that has respect for himself and the game (IMO) will not work more than four games in a day.


I work a few leagues/tournaments in the Sl. Louis area. I can only handle 4 games. Mentally and physically I break down at 4 games. I do see other that are doing 6-9 games. They move slow. One guy moves soooooooo slooooooooow down the court, that if the court was cement, it would harden before he got from one end to the other.

tomegun Tue Jul 27, 2010 06:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett (Post 686694)
Fixed it for ya'.

No need to fix it. That is not my opinion of rec ball.

grunewar Wed Jul 28, 2010 05:55am

"A Man's Got to Know His Limitations" - Clint Eastwood
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoochy (Post 686744)
I can only handle 4 games. Mentally and physically I break down at 4 games.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef (Post 686732)
An official that has respect for himself and the game (IMO) will not work more than four games in a day.

I won't heap "everyone" into the same category and put a definite # on how many games an official can/should do. The official needs to decide when they believe they can not give the effort required.

Interestingly enough - my limit right now is also four (on a large HS court). MS or ES, maybe one more.

A few months back I did a tourney and was asked to do five. After I drove the 45 minutes or so home and pulled up at my house, getting out of my car was quite a challenge.....sore and stiff...... getting old I guess. :o But, it sure beats the alternative.

GoodwillRef Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by grunewar (Post 686848)
I won't heap "everyone" into the same category and put a definite # on how many games an official can/should do. The official needs to decide when they believe they can not give the effort required.

Interestingly enough - my limit right now is also four (on a large HS court). MS or ES, maybe one more.

A few months back I did a tourney and was asked to do five. After I drove the 45 minutes or so home and pulled up at my house, getting out of my car was quite a challenge.....sore and stiff...... getting old I guess. :o But, it sure beats the alternative.

This line is the exact reason why the assigner needs to decide how many games in a day: "The official needs to decide when they believe they can not give the effort required." Guys will walk up and down the court for the $$$ if we let them.

grunewar Wed Jul 28, 2010 01:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef (Post 686902)
This line is the exact reason why the assigner needs to decide how many games in a day: "The official needs to decide when they believe they can not give the effort required." Guys will walk up and down the court for the $$$ if we let them.

I'm not going to disagree, but I was referring more to a person like me, who knows his limits and won't try to exceed them, as opposed to someone possibly in the "making as much $ as they can and not caring about their performance mode."

But, I do not agree with an arbirtary number - such as four games. A 20-25 yr old may be able to do more, and someone 55-60, maybe not so much.

If an evaluator/assignor reviews every official and knows their limits, then they could/should assign accordingly. I just don't see that in my neck of the woods, and restrict myself based on my abilities.

CoachCER Wed Jul 28, 2010 01:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by grunewar (Post 686936)
I'm not going to disagree, but I was referring more to a person like me, who knows his limits and won't try to exceed them, as opposed to someone possibly in the "making as much $ as they can and not caring about their performance mode."

But, I do not agree with an arbirtary number - such as four games. A 20-25 yr old may be able to do more, and someone 55-60, maybe not so much.

If an evaluator/assignor reviews every official and knows their limits, then they could/should assign accordingly. I just don't see that in my neck of the woods, and restrict myself based on my abilities.


I agree that most of the younger guys can do okay with 4+, but in general, I think 4 is a decent cut-off for many.

When I coached AAU, there was nothing more frustrating than having the last Saturday game and getting someone who had worked 7 games that day. I frequently saw guys who I generally thought were very strong officials spit the bit after so many games. I also know that not all of them did it for the money, and instead were bailing out the assignor and replacing no shows, in which case all you can do is thank them for doing their best.

I used to 6-7 kids games (5th-6th grade) a day in my younger days, and I think I pulled it off okay, although I don't think I was nearly as sharp later in the day. I much preferred 4-5, but our group was small and I did what I was assigned.

Mark Padgett Wed Jul 28, 2010 02:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by grunewar (Post 686936)
A 20-25 yr old may be able to do more, and someone 55-60, maybe not so much.

If age is your criteria, then I can do about one quarter. :(

grunewar Wed Jul 28, 2010 02:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett (Post 686948)
If age is your criteria, then I can do about one quarter. :(

I believe I used enough "maybe's" in there to qualify my statement as an example and not the only factor. Besides, we all know you can do at least a half!

Me on the other hand....maybe not so much! ;)

Johnny Ringo Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:09pm

The Las Vegas summer tournaments have become a place where many below average refs come to town and whore themselves out and work way too many games.

Teams pay a lot of money to come to Vegas to play games and then get a ref who might be working his 8th game of the day for the third consecutive day.

It's just not right.

Judtech Mon Aug 02, 2010 05:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo (Post 687438)
The Las Vegas summer tournaments have become a place where many below average refs come to town and whore themselves out and work way too many games.

Teams pay a lot of money to come to Vegas to play games and then get a ref who might be working his 8th game of the day for the third consecutive day.

It's just not right.

Why do I think this goes on all year and not just during the summers?:D

Rich Mon Aug 02, 2010 06:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo (Post 687438)
The Las Vegas summer tournaments have become a place where many below average refs come to town and whore themselves out and work way too many games.

Teams pay a lot of money to come to Vegas to play games and then get a ref who might be working his 8th game of the day for the third consecutive day.

It's just not right.

Perhaps the officials aren't paid enough per game (I have no knowledge of LV basketball, so I'm not specifically referring to it -- rather any sport where I have to stay in a hotel to work the games). I know that if I'm going to *go* someplace to officiate, it had better pay for all my expenses (hotel, meals) at a minimum. If it takes 8 games to do that, I'll probably work the 8 games.

If I'm told I'm only going to work 2 games a day and the pay is $20 a game, why would I want to work *at all*?

Johnny Ringo Mon Aug 02, 2010 07:53pm

IMO ... many ref the game just for the money. A source of income, and don't take pride in being a good official. Working that many games in a day is not fair to the kids. PERIOD.

And it showed last week.

Nevadaref Mon Aug 02, 2010 08:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachCER (Post 686941)
I agree that most of the younger guys can do okay with 4+, but in general, I think 4 is a decent cut-off for many.

When I coached AAU, there was nothing more frustrating than having the last Saturday game and getting someone who had worked 7 games that day. I frequently saw guys who I generally thought were very strong officials spit the bit after so many games. I also know that not all of them did it for the money, and instead were bailing out the assignor and replacing no shows, in which case all you can do is thank them for doing their best.

Astute points delivered in a classy manner. Many tournaments simply don't have enough officials. This next post explains why.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 687622)
Perhaps the officials aren't paid enough per game (I have no knowledge of LV basketball, so I'm not specifically referring to it -- rather any sport where I have to stay in a hotel to work the games). I know that if I'm going to *go* someplace to officiate, it had better pay for all my expenses (hotel, meals) at a minimum. If it takes 8 games to do that, I'll probably work the 8 games.

If I'm told I'm only going to work 2 games a day and the pay is $20 a game, why would I want to work *at all*?

Rich points out that most summer tournaments don't want to pay enough for the officials. That's true. The Vegas pay was $30 for 3-man games and $35 for 2-man the last time that I was there. Now understand that these games are the full 32 minutes (whether played in 2 halves or 4 quarters) and the clock stops on all whistles. They are not running clock. So why is the game fee not closer to the regular season HS fee of $50 for 3-man and $60 for 2-man? My personal opinion is that this summer pay is too low. The tournament organizers and the assignors have to negotiate a better deal for the officials. Right now the out-of-town officials pay for their own lodging, transportation, and meals. If the tournament picked up some of that, then I would agree with the lower game fee.

We all know that if the pay was higher, then the event would be able to attract more officials. That would allow for assignors to limit people to 4-5 games per day instead of 7+. But as the saying goes, you get what you pay for. If the event wants to pay a low fee, then mostly it will be the low quality officials who will show up and desire to work a bunch of games.

Rich Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 687627)
Rich points out that most summer tournaments don't want to pay enough for the officials. That's true. The Vegas pay was $30 for 3-man games and $35 for 2-man the last time that I was there. Now understand that these games are the full 32 minutes (whether played in 2 halves or 4 quarters) and the clock stops on all whistles. They are not running clock. So why is the game fee not closer to the regular season HS fee of $50 for 3-man and $60 for 2-man? My personal opinion is that this summer pay is too low. The tournament organizers and the assignors have to negotiate a better deal for the officials. Right now the out-of-town officials pay for their own lodging, transportation, and meals. If the tournament picked up some of that, then I would agree with the lower game fee.

We all know that if the pay was higher, then the event would be able to attract more officials. That would allow for assignors to limit people to 4-5 games per day instead of 7+. But as the saying goes, you get what you pay for. If the event wants to pay a low fee, then mostly it will be the low quality officials who will show up and desire to work a bunch of games.

I did a camp a few weeks ago where I busted tail for 13 full games over the course of a weekend. This was *with* running clocks. This was more basketball than I'm willing to work normally when I'm *getting* paid. I made it physically -- I was mentally tired at the end of the weekend.

If I was paid $50/game, I'd be happy working 3 games a day and spending the rest of the day enjoying myself. At $30 a game, it's hard paying for a hotel room at a decent hotel (I don't consider sharing a room with a bunch of other officials or staying in a flophouse attractive alternatives).

Paying officials $30 for stop-clock games? As Nevada says, you get what you pay for. I wouldn't leave the house for $30 a game, let alone travel to a place where I have to pay for a hotel, transportation, meals, and take vacation time.

What I find funny are people that expect champagne officials on a beer budget.

mbyron Tue Aug 03, 2010 08:14am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 687645)
What I find funny are people that expect champagne officials on a beer budget.

In my experience, they don't think about what they're likely to get for $30. A related issue is that they're not skilled at distinguishing good from bad officials.

Rich Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:23am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 687666)
In my experience, they don't think about what they're likely to get for $30. A related issue is that they're not skilled at distinguishing good from bad officials.

I'm sure Tommy is. However, expecting guys to bust hump all out for $30 for 8 games is, quite frankly, unrealistic. Likewise, expecting people to say, "Sorry, but I just can't physically do more than three games without slowing down a bit" and being happy with $90 when there's a hotel bill involved is equally unrealistic.

I do a few rec games, usually a week or two before I go to a camp. But they're local and I'm doing it more for me knocking the rust off than to make money. Cause for the $25 or $30 they're paying a game, if it wasn't for the "knocking the rust off" I wouldn't even leave the house.

Amazingly enough, we work time limited baseball that pays $45 a game and we're working to get that increased next season (unless I do 3-4 of those I don't leave the house, either). And that stuff doesn't involve us running up and down a court all day.

Zoochy Tue Aug 03, 2010 01:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 687666)
In my experience, they don't think about what they're likely to get for $30. A related issue is that they're not skilled at distinguishing good from bad officials.

$30 a game:eek:
I've done league/tournaments for $20 and $22 a game. :mad:
A good tournament/league will pay out $25 a game.:)

tomegun Tue Aug 03, 2010 01:54pm

Let me fill in some blanks.

Keep in mind, first people blamed 9/11 for everything and now it is the economy.

Game fees (all two-man): $28, $25, $22.50 (I know)
Lodging: Palace station $29/night weekdays, $49/night weekends (I think this is right)

This year was the first year a camp was held the first two days of the tournament. Many of those officials stuck around and worked games for pay.

With so many sites, there were officials who slipped through the cracks and I didn't know they were in over their heads until I got a call about them. It will not be as easy for officials to work games next year - I have to know I can count on officials being on time and being able to handle the games.

I moved away for a few years and when I came back my goal was to come close to breaking even. I was able to stay with a friend, but I paid for a rental. Some of these officials are out of work and wanted to make some money. While I feel for them, I will have a standard amount of games, with a rest period in between, for all officials from out of town. I'm thinking it would be 3/rest/3. I did have 3 officials from Colorado who only wanted 3 games a day. I guess they wanted to enjoy themselves after that.

I think this is way too low, but we have to realize we are the last thing these tournament directors think about - the scum at the bottom of the barrel.

Adam Tue Aug 03, 2010 02:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomegun (Post 687725)
I did have 3 officials from Colorado who only wanted 3 games a day. I guess they wanted to enjoy themselves after that.

This would be my approach; but my wife would likely come with me and not take too kindly to me working too many games.

Welpe Tue Aug 03, 2010 02:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 687726)
This would be my approach; but my wife would likely come with me and not take too kindly to me working too many games.

That would be the way to do it, IMO. Make it as part of a vacation.

MD Longhorn Tue Aug 03, 2010 02:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomegun (Post 687725)
I think this is way too low, but we have to realize we are the last thing these tournament directors think about - the scum at the bottom of the barrel.

Sometimes, as scheduler, it's our job to TELL them. I had a softball league I scheduled for, but didn't work. $25 a game, start times 90 minutes apart... on a good day you could get in 4 with proper breaks, maybe 6 without. I told them this was too low, but they stuck with it. Eventually, they were only getting the umpires that would work ANYwhere. The good umpires were working for $35, 70-75 minutes apart (this is where I was working too!). After 2 years of this they told me they were disappointed with the quality of officiating, and decided to hire high-schoolers on their own to work the games.

Only took half a season of this before they came back to me, hat in hand, $40 a game 90 minutes apart, and the following season it was $35 / 75 - just like everyone else. They've been happy since (although I've since moved, I hear it's still good there).

Camron Rust Tue Aug 03, 2010 02:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomegun (Post 687725)
Let me fill in some blanks.
I did have 3 officials from Colorado who only wanted 3 games a day. I guess they wanted to enjoy themselves after that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 687726)
This would be my approach; but my wife would likely come with me and not take too kindly to me working too many games.

Hey, that sounds like a good idea. Contact me in the future and I might just schedule a "vacation" to Vegas. I've never been there before but like to visit. And while i don't gamble or drink, I would love to see some of the shows such as Cirque du Soleil or Criss Angel.

Judtech Tue Aug 03, 2010 03:04pm

Keep me in the loop as well. Since the Mrs and I were married in Vegas (no she was NOT a showgirl!) we always love going back.
CAM - Cirque shows are awesome, but the Chris Angel show was a bit of a disappointment. I recommend Hash House a Go Go and Batista's Hole in The Wall for eating!

Rich Tue Aug 03, 2010 03:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomegun (Post 687725)
Let me fill in some blanks.

Keep in mind, first people blamed 9/11 for everything and now it is the economy.

Game fees (all two-man): $28, $25, $22.50 (I know)
Lodging: Palace station $29/night weekdays, $49/night weekends (I think this is right)

Eww. What's the pay differential? Different levels of basketball?

You know, I say I wouldn't do it, but I would if I could bring my own crew and we could work a fairly light schedule to leave time for other things. For those who need to make money, it sounds miserable, but for those looking for a partly subsidized vacation, it sounds OK. It would cost me a bit more than $29/$49 to stay, I think, cause I'd be in a nice place on the strip. :D

Not arriving on time is inexcusable, but I would expect to have the "can't handle the level of ball" issue every year. As a scheduler, you just deal with that and try to survive. I dealt with it for 3 years of adult baseball -- I just tried hiding the weak umpires on the non-competitive games and made sure to rotate them around so the same team didn't see them more than twice (cause then I'd get complaints).

You mentioned guys were out of uniform. How does *that* happen? I mean, surely you allow black shorts for summer games with such low pay, right?

tomegun Tue Aug 03, 2010 03:31pm

Anyone who wants to come should PM me. I will NOT wait until a couple months before the tournaments to start putting this together again. I have a list now that I developed over the last couple of months - I do have a black list of officials who will not be back as long as I have any say!

IMO, Hash House a Go Go has super-large portions, but bland food. I haven't been to Batista's, but I'm willing to try it out.

Mystere (sp?) is an awesome show and O is good too.

tomegun Tue Aug 03, 2010 03:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 687746)
Eww. What's the pay differential? Different levels of basketball?

You know, I say I wouldn't do it, but I would if I could bring my own crew and we could work a fairly light schedule to leave time for other things. For those who need to make money, it sounds miserable, but for those looking for a partly subsidized vacation, it sounds OK. It would cost me a bit more than $29/$49 to stay, I think, cause I'd be in a nice place on the strip. :D

Not arriving on time is inexcusable, but I would expect to have the "can't handle the level of ball" issue every year. As a scheduler, you just deal with that and try to survive. I dealt with it for 3 years of adult baseball -- I just tried hiding the weak umpires on the non-competitive games and made sure to rotate them around so the same team didn't see them more than twice (cause then I'd get complaints).

You mentioned guys were out of uniform. How does *that* happen? I mean, surely you allow black shorts for summer games with such low pay, right?

There were three different tournaments. One tournament was the low fee - something that will hopefully be addressed. The other differential was for two different levels of one tournament.

Yes, you could bring your own crew, but I will ask some questions beforehand. It isn't anything personal, but I have to have certain information.

This was the largest event I've scheduled for and I learned a lot. Certain officials will not see certain facilities because the games were just too big for them. When you have 10 D1 players on the court and every big name coach you can think of watching them I cannot afford to be generous with the games. I know my phone will ring (I had to change my plan because I went over 1500 text messages), but if I can limit the calls I will.

Two organizations were involved with this event. So I have two people I must answer to and they must answer to the tournament directors. Officials guidelines were sent out and the uniform was clearly defined. All black shorts, 90% black shoes, WHITE socks and black and white stripes. Doesn't sound too hard huh? Well, apparently it was. The fines were clearly defined too and officials still did things to take money out of their pockets. I was amazed by it all. I think fines were in the neighborhood of $500!

icallfouls Tue Aug 03, 2010 04:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomegun (Post 687751)
...

Two organizations were involved with this event. So I have two people I must answer to and they must answer to the tournament directors. Officials guidelines were sent out and the uniform was clearly defined. All black shorts, 90% black shoes, WHITE socks and black and white stripes. Doesn't sound too hard huh? Well, apparently it was. The fines were clearly defined too and officials still did things to take money out of their pockets. I was amazed by it all. I think fines were in the neighborhood of $500!

In regards to the fines, although not an issue when I arrive to a game.

Fines just seem like the organizers looking for excuses to cut the referees and remind them of their place. They could not do what they do if referees don't do what they do.

I see stuff like this all the time in my line of work. Both parties agree to a contract and then the owner comes back and tries to nickel and dime people on the way out the door. Over time this can equate to large chunks of money going back into the owner's pocket, yet the owner received FULL benefit of the service that was provided.

I know it can be a tough spot, and people should be able to handle a simple dress code. Did the players wear arm sleeves and livestrong bands during play?

MD Longhorn Tue Aug 03, 2010 04:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by icallfouls (Post 687756)
I know it can be a tough spot, and people should be able to handle a simple dress code. Did the players wear arm sleeves and livestrong bands during play?

He's talking about officials, not players - and the dress code he was asking for sounds like something that EVERY basketball official has - so not wearing it seems to be either extraordinarily lazy, or intentionally sloppy. I have no problem with docking the pay of guys who can't follow an easy dress code. I hope the money went to charity or a local high school or something - and not the tourney director's or UIC's pockets! :)

Nevadaref Tue Aug 03, 2010 04:29pm

For anyone who does make the trip and work for Tom, you will find that he is first class. He does things the right way and backs his people. Of course, in return he asks that you take care of business. Be on time, be in the proper uniform, don't cause unnecessary problems, handle the little stuff without bothering him, etc.

I've done games both for him and with him. My experience was completely positive.

tomegun Tue Aug 03, 2010 05:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by icallfouls (Post 687756)
I see stuff like this all the time in my line of work. Both parties agree to a contract and then the owner comes back and tries to nickel and dime people on the way out the door. Over time this can equate to large chunks of money going back into the owner's pocket, yet the owner received FULL benefit of the service that was provided.

I know it can be a tough spot, and people should be able to handle a simple dress code. Did the players wear arm sleeves and livestrong bands during play?

It doesn't matter where the money from fines goes, but the "owner" does not receive full benefit of the service that was provided. If we have an official who has to stay to start a game or (in the morning) a court where there is only one official, how can you say anyone got full benefit. It may be something I got from 20 years in the Air Force, but some things must be this is a situation where good order and discipline must rule.

So many times we talk about not being the fashion police and that is how we handle things in our events. We are not the fashion police. The teams pay to play in these events and as officials we are paid. We are there to provide a service in a professional manner and that is why we want our officials on time and in uniform. A team might shoot 50% of their shots. Can we use that as an excuse to miss 50% of our calls?

Our number one goal, throughout the year, should be to put the best officiating product on the floor possible. I just want to be associated with groups who strive for that.

Rich Tue Aug 03, 2010 05:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomegun (Post 687751)
Yes, you could bring your own crew, but I will ask some questions beforehand. It isn't anything personal, but I have to have certain information.

I would ask questions, too. Not sure which questions I'd ask, but I'd ask something, I think, just to get a reaction.

I always look for the sock color these days in instructions cause one group likes black while another group likes white. I took both to my last camp cause it wasn't specified.

icallfouls Tue Aug 03, 2010 06:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomegun (Post 687769)
It doesn't matter where the money from fines goes, but the "owner" does not receive full benefit of the service that was provided. If we have an official who has to stay to start a game or (in the morning) a court where there is only one official, how can you say anyone got full benefit. It may be something I got from 20 years in the Air Force, but some things must be this is a situation where good order and discipline must rule.

So many times we talk about not being the fashion police and that is how we handle things in our events. We are not the fashion police. The teams pay to play in these events and as officials we are paid. We are there to provide a service in a professional manner and that is why we want our officials on time and in uniform. A team might shoot 50% of their shots. Can we use that as an excuse to miss 50% of our calls?

Our number one goal, throughout the year, should be to put the best officiating product on the floor possible. I just want to be associated with groups who strive for that.


Totally support what you are saying.

I am referring to the dress code. It just seems punitive as I am not aware of associations (college or HS) that fine based on dress codes. I have no issue with fining an official that cannot be on time.

We ARE the fashion police, we just don't WANT to be. The dress code for players is in effect every game. Even if we are at an AAU tournament that "is using all or modified NCAA or NFHS rules," then people shouldn't be upset with an official that enforces that rule. That is a rule that we are paid to enforce and players know this rule and should not arrive at the game with them.

Personally the dress code is not an issue. I agree that the officials did not do what was asked of them. I just fail to see where having black socks or shoes that aren't black enough affects the quality of officiating. The mere action of the DRESS CODE fines is punitive and has no bearing on the quality of service that was given.

A tournament organizer could easily identify items from the rule book and make them fineable offenses for the officials if they do not take care of them.

The idea of the fine to officials for not adhering to a personal dress code could lead to the officials being fined for not enforcing certain aspects that are covered in the rule book. If an official fails to have a player remove a livestrong band and another player gets a finger caught up in the band and results in serious damage to the player, it is the official that gets called for not enforcing this simple rule.

The issue of who gets the fine money is another matter, but there is likely a credit that goes back to the tournament directors, I really don't care. But you can be sure they don't give it back to the teams. The tournament directors aren't splitting the fine money evenly to all the teams that paid for properly dressed or late officials. If they did, you can bet every team would have someone there to keep track of that.

BillyMac Tue Aug 03, 2010 06:02pm

Ebony And Ivory ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 687773)
Sock color ... one group likes black while another group likes white.

After twenty-nine years of not doing summer basketball, I decided to work some AAU games this summer. I bought some black officials shorts. That was the easy part. I still can't figure out if I should wear black or white socks. Most of my partners have worn very low cut white socks that barely show above the top of the shoe. I wear crew socks. Help?

Adam Tue Aug 03, 2010 06:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by icallfouls (Post 687774)
Totally support what you are saying.

I am referring to the dress code. It just seems punitive as I am not aware of associations (college or HS) that fine based on dress codes. I have no issue with fining an official that cannot be on time.

We ARE the fashion police, we just don't WANT to be. The dress code for players is in effect every game. Even if we are at an AAU tournament that "is using all or modified NCAA or NFHS rules," then people shouldn't be upset with an official that enforces that rule. That is a rule that we are paid to enforce and players know this rule and should not arrive at the game with them.

Personally the dress code is not an issue. I agree that the officials did not do what was asked of them. I just fail to see where having black socks or shoes that aren't black enough affects the quality of officiating. The mere action of the DRESS CODE fines is punitive and has no bearing on the quality of service that was given.

A tournament organizer could easily identify items from the rule book and make them fineable offenses for the officials if they do not take care of them.

The idea of the fine to officials for not adhering to a personal dress code could lead to the officials being fined for not enforcing certain aspects that are covered in the rule book. If an official fails to have a player remove a livestrong band and another player gets a finger caught up in the band and results in serious damage to the player, it is the official that gets called for not enforcing this simple rule.

The issue of who gets the fine money is another matter, but there is likely a credit that goes back to the tournament directors, I really don't care. But you can be sure they don't give it back to the teams. The tournament directors aren't splitting the fine money evenly to all the teams that paid for properly dressed or late officials. If they did, you can bet every team would have someone there to keep track of that.

Sometimes, with adults, the only thing that really matters when it comes to enforcement on something like this is cash. You can stipulate a dress code all you want, but without any teeth in the code, it means nothing.
You're not going to take away games on short notice due to scheduling reasons. You can't dock their evaluation since it's not a camp. There are no long term consequences (other than Tom deciding not to bring you back next year, but for most guys it won't matter) so you're stuck with short term consequences. My guess is, with a tourney of that size, $500 spread out means fines averaged between $10 and $30 per fined official.

Adam Tue Aug 03, 2010 06:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomegun (Post 687725)
Let me fill in some blanks.
(snip)
With so many sites, there were officials who slipped through the cracks and I didn't know they were in over their heads until I got a call about them. It will not be as easy for officials to work games next year - I have to know I can count on officials being on time and being able to handle the games.

I've been meaning to ask, tomegun, what were some of the issues you dealt with that were indicative of officials being in over their heads?

You mentioned big talent; does that mean they coudn't keep up with the pace? they couldn't officiate above the rim? Got some rules wrong? Unable to deal with egos?

I'm curious.

Judtech Tue Aug 03, 2010 06:18pm

TOME What are the dates?
Mystere IS awesome, we have seen about 7 Cirq shows and that is our fav
HASH has GREAT chicken and waffles, but I don't have it with onions. French Toast is also good. (However, I will not be eating a pregame meal there! Unless you have a partner who wants to roll me up and down!)
Batista's is behind what used to be the Barbary Coast (Billy's?) about a block and a half. Across the street from the end of Bally's

tomegun Tue Aug 03, 2010 07:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 687778)
I've been meaning to ask, tomegun, what were some of the issues you dealt with that were indicative of officials being in over their heads?

You mentioned big talent; does that mean they coudn't keep up with the pace? they couldn't officiate above the rim? Got some rules wrong? Unable to deal with egos?

I'm curious.

They couldn't manage everything necessary to be successful in that environment. The speed of the game and the size of the players were obviously too much for some to handle. Nerves were an issue for some. Dealing with coaches is a balancing act also.

tomegun Tue Aug 03, 2010 07:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judtech (Post 687779)
TOME What are the dates?
Mystere IS awesome, we have seen about 7 Cirq shows and that is our fav
HASH has GREAT chicken and waffles, but I don't have it with onions. French Toast is also good. (However, I will not be eating a pregame meal there! Unless you have a partner who wants to roll me up and down!)
Batista's is behind what used to be the Barbary Coast (Billy's?) about a block and a half. Across the street from the end of Bally's

The 3rd week in July; they start on a Thursday. There is also a camp if anyone is interested. The camp will get larger every year.

SWMOzebra Wed Aug 04, 2010 09:06am

Quote:

Originally Posted by icallfouls (Post 687774)
It just seems punitive as I am not aware of associations (college or HS) that fine based on dress codes.

While it's not exactly a fine, one of my collegiate assignors has been known to remove officials from subsequent games as a suspension for failure to follow his dress code.

Camron Rust Wed Aug 04, 2010 01:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by icallfouls (Post 687774)
I am referring to the dress code. It just seems punitive as I am not aware of associations (college or HS) that fine based on dress codes.

Just a guess but I'm thinking the nature of the event is largely the reason for the fines.

In a normal association, the assignor might address the issue by a reduction in future assignments (fewer games, lower level games, or even not games at all). In a multi-day tourney with officials coming from out of town, this assignor really doesn't have that leverage. Aside from money, he has no leverage at all.

Without it, you might have some officials showing up in stripes with others in greys (perhaps because that is what their area wears or perhaps because they're trying to bigtime). That just doesn't look too good. I doubt is is really about the color of the socks. And, as I said earlier, the only real leverage the assignor has is money. An official can either be "uniform" or be compensated less for not filling all the requirements of the job as spelled out when they accepted the job.

Kingsman1288 Wed Aug 04, 2010 03:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 687775)
After twenty-nine years of not doing summer basketball, I decided to work some AAU games this summer. I bought some black officials shorts. That was the easy part. I still can't figure out if I should wear black or white socks. Most of my partners have worn very low cut white socks that barely show above the top of the shoe. I wear crew socks. Help?

I believe the actual "rule" in my area is white crew socks, however no one really wears crew socks and most don't even wear white socks either. I think it just depends on how strict your board or assignor is regarding the uniform. Just bring bring both (white and black) with you. At least you'll be able to match what your partner is wearing.

amusedofficial Sun Aug 08, 2010 04:02am

crew socks
 
I've never understood the present fad of wearing those socks that don't show above the shoe. They were always known as "peds" which were something women wore on the bottom of their feet and I was apparently absent the day the sock police decreed they were acceptable for men. They are also uncomfortable as hell.

Black socks are another issue. Summer gyms often have no changing facilities or they didn't pay for a janitor to open officials lockerrooms. So if they ask for black socks, we then end up wearing some sort of street shoes or sneakers into the venue while wearing black socks and shorts. There is nothing dorkier than a middle aged man walking down the street wearing black socks and shorts. I would imagine this fashion embarrassment is a bigger problem in Las Vegas due to the propensity of hot moms to make the trip.

amusedofficial Sun Aug 08, 2010 04:12am

It also occurs to me, I've never worked a huge thing like the Vegas tournaments talk about here, but does anyone leverage the fact that officials are coming in from all over into some kind of sweetheart deal with a hotel?

Obviously the hotels would benefit as the "official officials hotel" would draw all sorts of women eager to be whistled for "reaching in," "over the back," or "up and down."

Rich Sun Aug 08, 2010 09:35am

Quote:

Originally Posted by amusedofficial (Post 688091)
I've never understood the present fad of wearing those socks that don't show above the shoe. They were always known as "peds" which were something women wore on the bottom of their feet and I was apparently absent the day the sock police decreed they were acceptable for men. They are also uncomfortable as hell.

I wear what are called "ankle socks". They show above the shoe, but only a few inches. I accidentally bought the type of socks you mentioned and I think they're still in my drawer, but I should just throw them out cause, as you said, they're incredibly uncomfortable.

grunewar Mon Aug 09, 2010 06:04am

Quote:

Originally Posted by amusedofficial (Post 688091)
I've never understood the present fad of wearing those socks that don't show above the shoe. They were always known as "peds" which were something women wore on the bottom of their feet and I was apparently absent the day the sock police decreed they were acceptable for men. They are also uncomfortable as hell.

As a distance runner I have some of the "low cut socks." They're soft, light, wick away the sweat, and I find them very comfortable. I don't wear them on the court - even in the summer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by amusedofficial (Post 688091)
There is nothing dorkier than a middle aged man walking down the street wearing black socks and shorts.

Sandles perhaps? :eek:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kingsman1288 (Post 687879)
Just bring bring both (white and black) with you. At least you'll be able to match what your partner is wearing.

Exactly! Been there, done that. Got caught without white socks a few yrs ago and my P hooked me up. Now, I even bring my long pants in the summer just in case......

fullor30 Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:33am

Regarding pay issues, I reffed 5 games at a high level Nike national girls tournament last month in the Chicago area with games at various sites. The assigner wanted a 'resume' to see if you were 'qualified' to officiate. Emails were fast and furious a good month before tourney, with various guidelines to follow and numerous site changes. My games were changed to a Junior College 60 miles from my home. My first game was at 8:00 am and assigner wanted us there 30 minutes prior to tipoff, and we were required to call him when we arrived. I should have known something was up when I checked my partner's experience level on the IHSA web site.............3rd year guy.

Half way into first game I find out game fee is twenty bucks. The entrance fee for teams was I believe 10,000 making it, according to coaches, the most expensive event to date. It was a college exposure event with over 200 college coaches attending. I was furious and felt taken advantage of. I don't officiate for money but somebody was taking a hefty slice out of our pockets.

As it turned out, many officials found out it was 20 bucks a game and either backed out, or just didn't show for the next day games. I never bothered to ask game fees as I assumed it would be fair for summer ball.

Only good thing about the event was it was good ball with great players from all over the country.

That said, it's been almost a month and I'm yet to be paid.

Fool me once..............

grunewar Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:44am

Argh!
 
Tough story Fullor!

Quote:

Originally Posted by fullor30 (Post 688179)
.........it's been almost a month and I'm yet to be paid.

Along with everything else, man I hate this! You know money changed hands a long, long time ago!

fullor30 Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by grunewar (Post 688180)
Tough story Fullor!

Along with everything else, man I hate this! You know money changed hands a long, long time ago!


Supposedly, assigner had money the day the tournament ended.

Camron Rust Mon Aug 09, 2010 01:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by fullor30 (Post 688179)

Half way into first game I find out game fee is twenty bucks. The entrance fee for teams was I believe 10,000 making it, according to coaches, the most expensive event to date. It was a college exposure event with over 200 college coaches attending. I was furious and felt taken advantage of. I don't officiate for money but somebody was taking a hefty slice out of our pockets.

I hope you are wrong becasue that it completely outrageous unless they're playing 30-40 games.

They were paying the officials $20/game for a total of $40/game. Perhaps some other clock/logistics/security people were being paid. So maybe you've got $100 per game in personnel expenses...call it $200 to be generous and give the organizers and assignor a little profit. Gym space is not that expensive and even if it were, it woudn't add up to 10k. Let's call it $300 per game for floor time. So @ $500 per game split between 2 teams ($250 each). That gives them enough money to run 40 games per team...

...or the organizers and/or assignors are making a lot of money.

The fact that college coaches are there is not relevant, they're there on their own dime.

tomegun Mon Aug 09, 2010 02:00pm

I was not a happy person about the one tournament that paid $22.50. I wouldn't leave the house for $20 unless the games lasted 30 minutes.

FYI - the only reason officials left town without money was if there was a scheduling issue and they had to get on the road. Checks were mailed to those individuals. Anyone who doesn't have the professionalism to make sure people are paid isn't someone worth working with.

fullor30 Mon Aug 09, 2010 03:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 688188)
I hope you are wrong becasue that it completely outrageous unless they're playing 30-40 games.

They were paying the officials $20/game for a total of $40/game. Perhaps some other clock/logistics/security people were being paid. So maybe you've got $100 per game in personnel expenses...call it $200 to be generous and give the organizers and assignor a little profit. Gym space is not that expensive and even if it were, it woudn't add up to 10k. Let's call it $300 per game for floor time. So @ $500 per game split between 2 teams ($250 each). That gives them enough money to run 40 games per team...

...or the organizers and/or assignors are making a lot of money.

The fact that college coaches are there is not relevant, they're there on their own dime.

The point about the coaches being there is it attracts more teams and promoters/Nike use that as a selling point to justify high entrance fee.

Camron Rust Mon Aug 09, 2010 03:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by fullor30 (Post 688203)
The point about the coaches being there is it attracts more teams and promoters/Nike use that as a selling point to justify high entrance fee.

Understood, but 10k? And if so, they should at least be paying the officials standard wages. Get the officials to boycott it unless the pay is better---or have the assignor give the best officials to other tourneys---and leave them with scrubs and rec. league officials. Let's see how much the teams like paying premium rates for rookie officials.

Judtech Mon Aug 09, 2010 05:19pm

I actually know where 2 of those gyms used for that tournament are located at. I was even at one during the first day/afternoon of play. (What can I say, I know people HA) I believe whoever assigns NCAA W for Big 10 etc, used that as one of their evaluating camps but is no longer affiliated with that event, which might explain some of the officiating cluster.
While I think the 10k entree fee might be a bit high, I wouldnt be suprised if it was between 5k - 7500. You also forgot to add in the 'fee" the college coaches pay to get into the event which, if memory serves was $300. Unless the officiating was horrendous, I am not sure how much those coaches care, they just want to see and be seen. Now the coaches with AAU might care!!


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