Please Help ...
 

Several months ago, I was asked to write an article, for our local board newsletter, on administrative infraction technical foul penalties. I have been procrastinating in writing this article for two reasons. First, I'm not a very good writer. Second, the technical foul penalties for administrative infractions have always confused me, and no matter how diligently I study the rulebook, and casebook, I'm never 100% comfortable with my interpretation of the penalties, and time limits, associated with these administrative infractions.

Well, I finally got around to writing the article. I'm asking Forum members to look it over and make suggestions to improve it, in terms of either correcting any mistakes that I have made in my interpretations, or in my writing style. I look forward to your comments, suggestions, deletions, additions, and corrections.

Here, in the next post, is my most recent draft ...

Administrative Infraction Technical Foul Penalties ...
 

Officials will do everything in their power to prevent administrative infraction technical fouls. The crew arrives on the court at least fifteen minutes prior to game time. The referee meets with the table crew and reviews table responsibilities with both the home, and visiting, scorekeeper, as well as the timer. The referee reviews the scorebook, looking for duplicate numbers, illegal numbers, and to check that the number of players on each roster coincides with the number of players warming up. Officials look for illegal uniforms, and illegal numbers, during pregame warmups. Once the game starts, substitutes anxious to enter the game are given the “stop sign” and are only beckoned when allowed by rule. Officials are very careful to count players after each substitution to insure that there are only five players from each team participating before allowing the ball to be put into play. Officials notify teams, and their coach, whenever a team is granted its final allotted charged timeout.

Yet, despite officials doing everything in their power to prevent administrative infraction technical fouls, these types of infractions still occur. All of a sudden, it’s realized that there are eleven players participating. The horn sounds at an odd time, and the officials are informed that a player’s number is not recorded in the official scorebook. Excess timeouts are requested, and granted. When these administrative infractions occur, officials must be prepared to deal with them, and penalize them, in the proper manner.

Some administrative infraction technical foul situations can occur before the jump ball is even tossed. If a team fails to supply the official scorer with its roster, and/or designate its five starting players, at least ten minutes before the scheduled starting time, then a team technical foul is charged. This team technical foul is charged when it occurs, pregame, after the ten minute time limit. A maximum of one technical foul is charged for both requirements (roster and starters).

If a team changes a designated starter (with exceptions) after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. If a player starts who was not designated to be a starter, the infraction has to be discovered, and penalized, before the ball becomes live to start the game. Once the ball becomes live, it is too late to penalize this specific infraction, and no penalty can be assessed. The ball becomes live when: on a jump ball, the tossed ball leaves the referee’s hand; on a throw-in, it is at the disposal of the thrower; and on a free throw, it is at the disposal of the free thrower.

Many administrative infractions can involve the scorebook and rosters. If a team adds a name to the team roster after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. When such a player legally enters the court, the player’s name, and number, must be entered into the official scorebook. In order to penalize this infraction, the player must be one of the five players currently in the game. In addition, if a team requires the official scorer to change a team member, or player number in the official scorebook (with exception), after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. If there is no request for change, or if a team member does not become a player, thus avoiding the change, there is no penalty.

Similarly, if a team requires a player to change to a number in the official scorebook after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. A maximum of one team technical foul is charged regardless of the number of players, and substitutes, not wearing the number indicated in the official scorebook. Each player must wear the number indicated in the official scorebook, or change the official scorebook number to that which the player is wearing. Any additional substitutes who become players and require the changing of the number indicated for them in the official scorebook will not result in a penalty as the one maximum technical has already been charged to the team for this administrative infraction. If there is no request for change, or if the team member does not become a player, thus avoiding the change, there is no penalty.

These three situations (adding a name to the team roster, changing a name or a number in the official scorebook, having a player change a number) are penalized when they occur, after the ten minute time limit. The infraction occurs when the scorer is advised to add to or change the official scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball has become live, after such changes have been made to the scorebook, it is too late to penalize. Remember, the ball becomes live when: on a jump ball, the tossed ball leaves the referee’s hand; on a throw-in, it is at the disposal of the thrower; and on a free throw, it is at the disposal of the free thrower.

Only one team technical foul is charged regardless of the number of players and substitutes not wearing the number indicated in the official scorebook. Each player must wear the number indicated in the scorebook or change the official scorebook number to that which he/she is wearing. Any substitutes who become players and require the changing of the number indicated for them in the official scorebook will not result in a penalty as the one maximum technical has already been charged to the team for an administrative infraction.

A maximum of one technical foul per team is charged regardless of the number of infractions for changing a designated starter, adding a name to the team roster, changing a name or a number in the official scorebook, having a player change a number, or a team having identical numbers on team members, and/or players.

If a team has identical numbers on team members, and/or players, after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. This infraction is charged and penalized upon discovery of identical numbers. Only one team member may wear a given number; the other must change to a number not already in use before participating.

Technical fouls for illegal uniforms, and thus, illegal numbers, are not charged to the team, but rather, are charged to the head coach. If a team member participates while wearing an illegal uniform, then a direct foul is charged to the head coach, who will lose his/her coaching-box privileges for the remainder of the game. This infraction is penalized when discovered. A maximum of one technical foul shall be charged directly to the head coach regardless of the number of offenders. The team member with the illegal uniform number may participate without further penalty and is not required to change his/her number. If no changes are made to the scorebook, no infraction has occurred.

If a team requests an excess timeout, then a team technical foul is charged. The penalty for an excessive timeout is assessed when discovered.

If a team has more than five team members participating simultaneously, then a team technical foul is charged. This infraction is penalized if it is discovered by the officials while being violated, in other words, while more than five team members are participating.

If a player participates after changing a number without reporting the change to the official scorer and an official, then a player flagrant technical foul is charged. This infraction is penalized if it is discovered by the officials while being violated, in other words, when a player is discovered to be participating after changing a number without reporting the change to the official scorer and an official.

If the head coach permits a team member to participate after being removed from the game for disqualification, then a direct foul is charged to the head coach, who will lose his/her coaching-box privileges for the remainder of the game. This infraction is penalized if it is discovered by the officials while being violated, in other words, when a team member is discovered to be participating after being removed from the game for disqualification.

If a substitute enters the court without reporting to the scorer; and without being beckoned by an official, except between periods, then a technical foul shall be charged to the substitute. A maximum of one foul for either, or both, requirements, reporting, and/or beckoned is charged. A substitute technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball. Once the ball becomes live, the substitute is a legal player at that point, the foul is not penalized. Remember, the ball becomes live when: on a jump ball, the tossed ball leaves the referee’s hand; on a throw-in, it is at the disposal of the thrower; and on a free throw, it is at the disposal of the free thrower.

Officials do everything in their power to prevent administrative infraction technical fouls, yet, these types of infractions still occur. When these administrative infractions occur, officials must be prepared to deal with them, and penalize them, in the proper manner.

Hard to believe you didn't include any pictures.

Billy:

What agreat reference tool this article is! My one suggestion would be to highlight each infraction you discuss to make it easier to locate in a hurry:

Officials will do everything in their power to prevent administrative infraction technical fouls. The crew arrives on the court at least fifteen minutes prior to game time. The referee meets with the table crew and reviews table responsibilities with both the home, and visiting, scorekeeper, as well as the timer. The referee reviews the scorebook, looking for duplicate numbers, illegal numbers, and to check that the number of players on each roster coincides with the number of players warming up. Officials look for illegal uniforms, and illegal numbers, during pregame warmups. Once the game starts, substitutes anxious to enter the game are given the “stop sign” and are only beckoned when allowed by rule. Officials are very careful to count players after each substitution to insure that there are only five players from each team participating before allowing the ball to be put into play. Officials notify teams, and their coach, whenever a team is granted its final allotted charged timeout.

Yet, despite officials doing everything in their power to prevent administrative infraction technical fouls, these types of infractions still occur. All of a sudden, it’s realized that there are eleven players participating. The horn sounds at an odd time, and the officials are informed that a player’s number is not recorded in the official scorebook. Excess timeouts are requested, and granted. When these administrative infractions occur, officials must be prepared to deal with them, and penalize them, in the proper manner.

Some administrative infraction technical foul situations can occur before the jump ball is even tossed. If a team fails to supply the official scorer with its roster, and/or designate its five starting players, at least ten minutes before the scheduled starting time, then a team technical foul is charged. This team technical foul is charged when it occurs, pregame, after the ten minute time limit. A maximum of one technical foul is charged for both requirements (roster and starters).

If a team changes a designated starter (with exceptions) after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. If a player starts who was not designated to be a starter, the infraction has to be discovered, and penalized, before the ball becomes live to start the game. Once the ball becomes live, it is too late to penalize this specific infraction, and no penalty can be assessed. The ball becomes live when: on a jump ball, the tossed ball leaves the referee’s hand; on a throw-in, it is at the disposal of the thrower; and on a free throw, it is at the disposal of the free thrower.

Many administrative infractions can involve the scorebook and rosters. If a team adds a name to the team roster after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. When such a player legally enters the court, the player’s name, and number, must be entered into the official scorebook. In order to penalize this infraction, the player must be one of the five players currently in the game. In addition, if a team requires the official scorer to change a team member, or player number in the official scorebook (with exception), after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. If there is no request for change, or if a team member does not become a player, thus avoiding the change, there is no penalty.

Similarly, if a team requires a player to change to a number in the official scorebook after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. A maximum of one team technical foul is charged regardless of the number of players, and substitutes, not wearing the number indicated in the official scorebook. Each player must wear the number indicated in the official scorebook, or change the official scorebook number to that which the player is wearing. Any additional substitutes who become players and require the changing of the number indicated for them in the official scorebook will not result in a penalty as the one maximum technical has already been charged to the team for this administrative infraction. If there is no request for change, or if the team member does not become a player, thus avoiding the change, there is no penalty.

These three situations (adding a name to the team roster, changing a name or a number in the official scorebook, having a player change a number) are penalized when they occur, after the ten minute time limit. The infraction occurs when the scorer is advised to add to or change the official scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball has become live, after such changes have been made to the scorebook, it is too late to penalize. Remember, the ball becomes live when: on a jump ball, the tossed ball leaves the referee’s hand; on a throw-in, it is at the disposal of the thrower; and on a free throw, it is at the disposal of the free thrower.

Only one team technical foul is charged regardless of the number of players and substitutes not wearing the number indicated in the official scorebook. Each player must wear the number indicated in the scorebook or change the official scorebook number to that which he/she is wearing. Any substitutes who become players and require the changing of the number indicated for them in the official scorebook will not result in a penalty as the one maximum technical has already been charged to the team for an administrative infraction.

A maximum of one technical foul per team is charged regardless of the number of infractions for changing a designated starter, adding a name to the team roster, changing a name or a number in the official scorebook, having a player change a number, or a team having identical numbers on team members, and/or players.

If a team has identical numbers on team members, and/or players, after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. This infraction is charged and penalized upon discovery of identical numbers. Only one team member may wear a given number; the other must change to a number not already in use before participating.

Technical fouls for illegal uniforms, and thus, illegal numbers, are not charged to the team, but rather, are charged to the head coach. If a team member participates while wearing an illegal uniform, then a direct foul is charged to the head coach, who will lose his/her coaching-box privileges for the remainder of the game. This infraction is penalized when discovered. A maximum of one technical foul shall be charged directly to the head coach regardless of the number of offenders. The team member with the illegal uniform number may participate without further penalty and is not required to change his/her number. If no changes are made to the scorebook, no infraction has occurred.

If a team requests an excess timeout, then a team technical foul is charged. The penalty for an excessive timeout is assessed when discovered.

If a team has more than five team members participating simultaneously, then a team technical foul is charged. This infraction is penalized if it is discovered by the officials while being violated, in other words, while more than five team members are participating.

If a player participates after changing a number without reporting the change to the official scorer and an official, then a player flagrant technical foul is charged. This infraction is penalized if it is discovered by the officials while being violated, in other words, when a player is discovered to be participating after changing a number without reporting the change to the official scorer and an official.

If the head coach permits a team member to participate after being removed from the game for disqualification, then a direct foul is charged to the head coach, who will lose his/her coaching-box privileges for the remainder of the game. This infraction is penalized if it is discovered by the officials while being violated, in other words, when a team member is discovered to be participating after being removed from the game for disqualification.

If a substitute enters the court without reporting to the scorer; and without being beckoned by an official, except between periods, then a technical foul shall be chard to the substitute. A maximum of one foul for either, or both, requirements, reporting, and/or beckoned is charged. A substitute technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball. Once the ball becomes live, the substitute is a legal player at that point, the foul is not penalized. Remember, the ball becomes live when: on a jump ball, the tossed ball leaves the referee’s hand; on a throw-in, it is at the disposal of the thrower; and on a free throw, it is at the disposal of the free thrower.

Officials do everything in their power to prevent administrative infraction technical fouls, yet, these types of infractions still occur. When these administrative infractions occur, officials must be prepared to deal with them, and penalize them, in the proper manner.

Thanks ...
 

Great suggestion. Will do.

Like This ???
 

Note ...
 

I've posted this on other forums. I wanted to get as much input as possible.

Let the games begin.

BillyMac: I really like it! I am still going through but on first pass, in the next to last paragraph, you have the word "chard" instead of "charged". Spell checker would have missed this so I thought I'd help you out.

Beta Vulgaris Var. Cicla ...
 

Now why didn't you think chard belonged there? Haven't you ever heard of Swiss Chard? Obviously spell checker must be a gardener.

Thanks. I will correct it in my final draft.

Well Done!
 

Well done BillyMac! I hope the officials in your unit find this as good a read as I did.

Can you shorten it to 25 words?

Or maybe add an anecdote. It's a little dry. :D

How's This For An Anecdote ???
 

Final Draft ...
 

Here's my final draft. Much thanks to Bad Zebra, Walter, ChuckElias, and especially Bainsey, for their suggestions.

It's not too late to offer suggestions for improvement.

ADMINISTRATIVE INFRACTION TECHNICAL FOUL PENALTIES

Basketball officials will do everything in their power to prevent administrative infraction technical fouls. The crew arrives on the court at least fifteen minutes prior to game time. The referee meets with the table crew and reviews table responsibilities with the home scorekeeper, the visiting scorekeeper, and the timer. The referee reviews the scorebook, looking for duplicate numbers, illegal numbers, and that the number of players on each roster coincides with the number of players warming up. Officials look for illegal uniforms and illegal numbers during pregame warm-ups. Once the game starts, substitutes eager to enter the game are given the “stop sign” and are only beckoned when allowed by rule. Officials are very careful to count players after each substitution to ensure that there are only five players from each team participating before allowing the ball to be put into play. Officials notify teams, and their coaches, whenever a team is granted its final allotted charged timeout.

Yet, despite officials doing everything in their power to prevent administrative infraction technical fouls, these types of infractions still occur. All of a sudden, it’s realized that there are eleven players participating. The horn sounds at an odd time, and the officials are informed that a player’s number is not recorded in the official scorebook. Excess timeouts are requested, and granted. When these administrative infractions occur, officials must be prepared to deal with them, and penalize them, in the proper manner, within the proper time frame.

Some administrative infraction technical foul situations can occur before the jump ball is even tossed. If a team fails to supply the official scorer with its roster, and/or designate its five starting players at least ten minutes before the scheduled starting time, then a team technical foul is charged. This team technical foul is charged when it occurs: after the ten minute time limit. A maximum of one technical foul is charged for both requirements (roster and starters).

If a team changes a designated starter (with exceptions) after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. If a player starts, and that player was not designated to be a starter, the infraction has to be discovered, and penalized, before the ball becomes live to start the game. Once the ball becomes live, it is too late to penalize this specific infraction, and no penalty can be assessed. As a reminder, the ball becomes live when: on a jump ball, the tossed ball leaves the referee’s hand; on a throw-in, it is at the disposal of the thrower; and on a free throw, it is at the disposal of the free thrower.

Many administrative infractions can involve the scorebook and rosters. If a team adds a name to the team roster after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. When such a player legally enters the court, the player’s name, and number, must be entered into the official scorebook. In order to penalize this infraction, the offending team member must be one of the five players currently in the game. In addition, if a team requires the official scorer to change a team member, or player number in the official scorebook (with exception), after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. If there is no request for change, or if a team member does not become a player, thus avoiding the change, there is no penalty.

Similarly, if a team requires a player to change to a number in the official scorebook after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. A maximum of one team technical foul is charged regardless of the number of players, and substitutes, not wearing the number indicated in the official scorebook. Each player must wear the number indicated in the official scorebook, or change the official scorebook number to that which the player is wearing. Any additional substitutes who become players and require the changing of the number indicated for them in the official scorebook will not result in a penalty, as the one maximum technical has already been charged to the team for this administrative infraction. If there is no request for change, or if the team member does not become a player, thus avoiding the change, there is no penalty.

These three scorebook situations – adding a name to the team roster, changing a name or a number in the official scorebook, having a player change a number – are penalized when they occur, after the ten minute time limit. The infraction occurs when the scorer is advised to add to or change the official scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball has become live, after such changes have been made to the scorebook, it is too late to penalize. Remember, the ball becomes live when: on a jump ball, the tossed ball leaves the referee’s hand; on a throw-in, it is at the disposal of the thrower; and on a free throw, it is at the disposal of the free thrower.

A maximum of one technical foul per team is charged regardless of the number of infractions for changing a designated starter, adding a name to the team roster, changing a name or a number in the official scorebook, having a player change a number, or a team having identical numbers on team members, and/or players. Each player must wear the number indicated in the scorebook, or change the official scorebook number to that the player is wearing. Any additional substitutes who become players and require the changing of the number indicated for them in the official scorebook will not result in a penalty, as the one maximum technical has already been charged to the team for that team’s administrative infraction.

If a team has identical numbers on team members, and/or players, after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. This infraction is charged and penalized upon discovery of identical numbers. Only one team member may wear a given number; the other must change to a number not already in use before participating.

Technical fouls for illegal uniforms and illegal numbers are not charged to the team, but rather, are charged directly to the head coach. If a team member participates while wearing an illegal uniform, then a direct technical foul is charged to the head coach, who will lose the coaching box privilege for the remainder of the game. This infraction is penalized when discovered. A maximum of one technical foul shall be charged directly to the head coach regardless of the number of offenders. The team member with the illegal uniform number may participate without further penalty and is not required to change his/her number. If no changes are made to the scorebook, no infraction has occurred.

If a team requests and is granted an excess timeout, then a team technical foul is charged. The penalty for an excessive timeout is assessed when discovered.

If a team has more than five team members participating simultaneously, then a team technical foul is charged. This infraction is penalized if it is discovered by the officials while being violated, in other words, while more than five team members are participating as players currently in the game.

If a player participates after changing a number without reporting the change to the official scorer and an official, then a player flagrant technical foul is charged. This infraction is penalized if it is discovered by the officials while being violated. In other words, it can only be penalized when the offending team member is one of the five players currently in the game, and is not bench personnel.

If the head coach permits a team member to participate after being removed from the game for disqualification, then a direct technical foul is charged to the head coach, who will lose the coaching box privilege for the remainder of the game. This infraction is penalized if it is discovered by the officials while being violated. In other words, this can only be penalized when the offending team member is one of the five players currently in the game, and is not bench personnel.

If a substitute enters the court without reporting to the scorer; and without being beckoned by an official, except between periods, then a technical foul shall be charged to the substitute. Each illegal substitute gets one technical foul per instance, whether they didn’t report, or entered the court without being beckoned, or both. Two technical fouls are not charged if the illegal substitute doesn’t report and enters without being beckoned. A substitute technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball. Once the ball becomes live, the substitute is a legal player at that point, the foul is not penalized. Remember, the ball becomes live when: on a jump ball, the tossed ball leaves the referee’s hand; on a throw-in, it is at the disposal of the thrower; and on a free throw, it is at the disposal of the free thrower.

Officials must continue to do everything in their power using diligent preventative officiating to prevent administrative infraction technical fouls from occurring. However, when these administrative infractions occur, officials must be prepared to deal with them, and penalize them, in the proper manner, within the proper time frame.

This may be picky but in your third paragraph you state "at least ten minutes before the scheduled starting time". In all other places you have "ten minute time limit" which it really isn't. While everyone on this board know what you mean it may not be as clear to others.

Line In The Sand ...
 

Good point. Thanks for reading and commenting. The "at least" refers to the fact that a team can legally submit it's roster 12 minutes before the scheduled start of the game. They don't have to submit it at the 10 minute mark exactly. When an infraction occurs, it occurs after that 10 minute time limit. Doesn't matter if it's at 9 minutes, or at 2 minutes. When infractions occur, that 10 minute time limit is a line drawn in the sand that can't be crossed (theoretically).

Am I making any sense here, or do I need to do another rewrite?

And if the number of players DOESN'T coincide, what then is the R supposed to do? And why? :confused:

Which also brings up the points......
1) Can a member of bench personnel other than a team member participate in the pre-game warmup?
2) What is the penalty if a bench member other than a team member dunks the ball in the pre-game warmup?

Rules refences with the answers would be greatly appreciated.

Preventive Officiating ...
 

Here in our little corner of Connecticut, we've been taught, for at least the past thirty years, to do a little preventive officiating while checking the book before the game. We are encouraged to check the book no later than twelve minutes before the scheduled starting time to rectify any errors, or discrepancies, before they turn into infractions that have to be penalized after the ten minute mark.

We have been encouraged to look for illegal numbers, and identical numbers, before the ten minute mark so that they can be addressed, at this point, without penalty. We have also been encouraged to check that there are the same number of players in the book, or more, than there are players warming up. If there are more players in the book than there are players warming up, it's no big deal and we move on, maybe a player is sick, or injured. On the other hand, if there are fewer players in the book than there are players warming up, then we address this issue with the scorekeeper. The usual response is, "Oh yeah. Johnny Smith got moved up to the varsity for tonight's game. I forgot. Thanks.". Again, this is all done before the ten minute mark to avoid having to penalize "administrative" infractions.

Even though we try to find errors, and discrepancies, before the ten minute mark, they still happen, and ultimately, it's the coach's responsibility to make sure that the scorebook, roster, uniform numbers, etc., are correct. We only have a few minutes to spend with the table crew before the game, and the players, usually wearing warmup tops over their uniform jerseys, are difficult to observe for illegal uniforms, numbers, and equipment. Sometimes we only get to see what they are actually wearing during the National Anthem and pregame player introductions. We still try to do the best we can to avoid administrative infraction penalties, but when they happen, and if you officiate long enough, they will, we must be prepared to deal with them, and penalize them, in the proper manner, within the proper time frame.

In any case, that's the way we've been doing things around here for a long, long, time. Is there a rules reference, or a manual reference, that covers these procedures? Probably not. Are we right, and is everybody else, who doesn't use these preventative procedures, wrong? No. When in Rome, or in this case, when in my little corner of IAABO Connecticut ...

Great Questions ...
 

Jurassic Referee: Great questions. I've often wondered about these situations. I do remember an interpretation a few years ago that stated that team members warming up must be legally equipped, thus, no earrings, no illegal headbands, etc.

10-3-3 tells us that a player shall not: Grasp either basket during the time of the officials’ jurisdiction, dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff a dead ball prior to or during the game or during any intermission until jurisdiction of the officials has ended. This item applies to all team members.

But is there a rule that tells us that team members, other than players, and substitutes, for example, the team manager, team mascot, team trainer, team coach, team statistician, team chaplain, injured player in street clothes, injured player in uniform (whose name is in the book but won't play), etc., may not get involved in pregame warmups? I don't know.

This situation should probably have it's own thread. Let the games begin.

http://thm-a02.yimg.com/nimage/4b0b4d4160efc574

Got to know your definitions, Billy. Bench personnel such as coaches, trainers, etc. are NOT team members, by rule.

NFHS rule 4-34.

What issue? :confused:

What rule is being broken that you have to address?

I was very late to the following discussion, but BillyMac's question (more players warming up than are in the book) reminded of this thread, which addressed the opposite problem (more players in the book than warming up):

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...re-game-4.html

It reminded me of that thread also, as did Billy's essay on administrative infractions.

Which is kinda why I asked the questions above that haven't been answered yet. :D

NFHS Rule 4-34 ...
 

PLAYERS/BENCH PERSONNEL/SUBSTITUTES/TEAM MEMBERS
ART. 1 A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time, except intermission.
ART. 2 Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and statistician(s). During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel.
ART. 3 A substitute becomes a player when he/she legally enters the court. If entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live. A player becomes bench personnel after his/her substitute becomes a player or after notification of the coach following his/her disqualification.
ART. 4 A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

Is there a rule that tells us that bench personnel, other than players, and substitutes, for example, the team manager, team mascot, team trainer, team coach, team statistician, team chaplain, injured player in street clothes, injured player in uniform (whose name is in the book but won't play), etc., may not get involved in pregame warmups?

Didn't I just ask you that?:D

And if one of 'em dunks, is there a rule prohibiting that also?

Measure Twice, Cut Once ...
 

Up until the ten minute mark, no rule is being broken. In fact, if a player warming up, who is not in the book, never becomes one of the five players in the game, then no rule has been broken. If such player gets in, and out, of the game without his name and number being added to the book, then again, no rule has been broken. If however that player enters the game, and the scorekeeper adds his name and number into a book, then a technical foul must be charged while that team member is a player in the game.

Sometimes this can be avoided with some pregame preventative officiating:
Referee: "Hey scorekeeper. Why are thirteen kids warming up? There are only twelve in the book."
Scorekeeper: "I didn't know that Bobby Jones had been cleared to play by the trainer. He's been injured for two weeks. Thanks for noticing that.".
I probably go through this scenario, or something nearly like it, about two or three times a season.

Again, that's the way we do it around here. Not in the rulebook. Probably not in the manual. Nobody's doing anything wrong if they don't do it. It's just the way we've been doing it around here for, at least, the last thirty years.

Interrogatory Statement
 

Yes you did. And I didn't know the answer, which is why I ended the last sentence in the post, "Is there a rule that tells us that bench personnel, other than players, and substitutes, ... may not get involved in pregame warmups?" with a question mark.

Is there such a rule that tells us who may warmup with the team, and who may not? What if the team chaplain (bench personnel) dunks during pregame warmups?

Jurassic Referee: Do you have an interpretation on this, or are you playing "devil's advocate? I know that you must, at least, have an opinion.

Am I Still Wrong ???
 

Scrapper1: You had to resurrect this situation. I got that question wrong on the IAABO Refresher Exam, and I'm still pissed about it. I remember it like it was yesterday.

When I was coaching middle school basketball, all fourteen players were listed, in numerical order, in the scorebook for all games, injured, ill, absent, suspension, etc. I would write in the roster several games in advance. Just wanted to be sure that we never got a technical foul for adding name and number to the book.

We have had a couple of threads on the dunk thing, and some of us (I) say, if he is in uniform and warming up with the team, if he dunks it is a technical foul, no matter who he is.

Show Off ...
 

Junior varsity player, in uniform, identical to the varsity uniforms, decides to join in the varsity layup line and dunks the ball. His name and number are not listed in the scorebook for the varsity game.

Is he a player? No. Is he a team member? Well, is he eligible to become a player? His name and number are not on the roster in the scorebook, but we all know that he can have his name added to the roster and scorebook if he becomes a player at the expense of a technical foul. Of course, anyone in the gym, in uniform, from the freshman team on up, could get into the game at the expense of a technical foul. Does that mean that they're all eligible to become players, and, therefore, team members, who can be called for technical foul if they dunk pregame?

Just asking. As with bench personnel (team chaplain) dunking, or for that matter, just warming up, I've got questions, and no answers.

I'm Grasping At Straws Here ...
 

I still don't know for sure, but I'll take a stab at it.

I cannot find anything in 10-4 (Bench Personnel) that prohibits bench personnel, who are not substitutes, from dunking a dead ball prior to or during the game or during any intermission until jurisdiction of the officials has ended.

However, and I'm grasping at straws here, according to 10-4-2, bench personnel (team chaplain) shall not: Enter the court unless by permission of an official to attend an injured player.

It's a stretch, but if the team chaplain (bench personnel), comes out during warmups and dunks, the official can't charge him with a technical foul for dunking, but can charge him with a technical foul for entering the court. Of course if you believe this interpretation, then you can also use this citation to prevent the team chaplain (bench personnel), from warming up with the team.

That's the best I can come up with. I hope that someone comes up with a better answer, with some pertinent citations.

http://thm-a01.yimg.com/nimage/1bbc931a7fa04778

10-3-3: This item applies to all team members.

4-34-4: A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

If these guys are in uniform, and they report to the table during the game, what are you gonna do? Beckon them in, no matter who they are.

This means they are eligible to become players.

This means if they dunk during the warmup, it is a technical foul.

Still Grasping At Straws Here ...
 

I was referring to Jurassic Referee's question from several posts ago, where he asked: "Can a member of bench personnel other than a team member participate in the pre-game warmup?", and, "What is the penalty if a bench member other than a team member dunks the ball in the pre-game warmup?".

To stay with my example, what happens if the team chaplain dunks during pregame warmups? From my most recent post before this, I believe that the dunking is not the illegal act. However, it is illegal for the team chaplain to enter the court unless by permission of an official to attend an injured player, so there's our technical foul, which would also prevent him from warming up with the team.

I'm hoping that someone can come up with a better interpretation, and citation than mine. There has to be some other rule reference that prevents nonunifomed bench personnel from getting in the layup line, or getting in the layup line and dunking.

And again, how about the kid from the freshman team, who hangs around, in uniform, after his late afternoon game, watches the junior varsity game from the stands, and after the junior varsity game, decides to show off and joins the layup line and jams one down during the varsity warmups? In the book? No. In uniform? Yes. Eligible to play? Probably. Technical foul? Probably. Again, I'm hoping that someone can come up with a better interpretation, and citation than mine.

There is no rule that I know of that states who can or can't warmup. I don't think that you have any rules justification to stop bench personnel such as team trainers/statisticians from warming up with team members as long as they were legally dressed. The rules just don't cover it. I do know that there is no valid reason by rule for the R to check or do anything about the number of players warming up pre-game if that number differs with the number of players in the book. The old thread that Scrappy posted kinda alluded to that. That's why I took exception with you for including that coda in your Administrative Infraction essay.

As for dunking pre-game.....
1) I disagree completely with JAR about "T"ing up someone in uniform if that person is not a member of that team's bench personnel. I know of no rule that will allow you to assess a technical foul to someone who isn't a member of a team's bench personnel. The only rule even close imo is rule 2-8-1 which covers unsporting conduct by a team follower, and I'd be very, very careful about issuing a "T" using that rule. Just have that person removed from the court.
2) The rules related to pre-game dunking refer to players and team members only. They do not relate to other members of a team's bench personnel afaik. However, there is nowayinhell you should ever allow those bench personnel members to dunk pre-game. I doubt very much that was the purpose and intent of the no pre-game dunking rule. In that particular case, you can use the language of rule 10-4-1 which says bench personnel shall not commit an unsporting foul and also says that "this includes but is not limited to...". Iow you can call a "T" if you feel that an act is unsporting...and someone from bench personnel dunking pre-game sureasheck is committing an unsporting act imo. Note that the penalty is exactly the same as the penalty for a player/team member dunking pre-game. It's a direct "T" to the offender and an indirect "T" to the head coach.

Rules rulz! The odds are a million to 1 that you'd ever actually see in a real game what we're discussing. If by some stoopid happenchance it actually did occur though, I would just use what rules I do have and then post-game try to get a definitive ruling from my state governing body.

Are you kidding? Are you really saying that a team chaplain or any other member of bench personnel outside of players and team members can't go out on the floor during the pre-game warmup? A trainer couldn't come out on the court to look at a player without getting official permission first?

Don't think so, Billy. If that logic was true, you'd have to give out technical fouls to all bench personnel who came out onto the court during a timeout. Or left the bench area at half time. And we know that a head coach can legally take his team out on the court during a full timeout and into the locker room at half time.

You're reading something into the rule that was never intended.

If he is in uniform and sitting with or warming up with the team, he is bench personnel.

I'm not so sure, jar. Bear in mind that 10-3 clearly says, "A player shall not..."

Keep reading.

And what is the definition of "player"? According to 4-34-1, a player is one of the 5 team members who are legally on the court at the same time. Since this is before the game, how do you tell which 5 are the "players"? Since this is an intermission, rather than the game itself, you can then use 4-34-2, which states, "During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel."

That is the reason why there has been this discussion about the difference between "player", "team member" and "bench personnel", because of the definitions of the terms used.

Yup, but that doesn't make him a player or a team member by rule. And the strict language of rule 10-3-3 applies ONLY to players and team members. NFHS rule 4-34-4 says "A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player. You are eligible to become a player when your name is added to the team member list. If the head coach doesn't put someone's name on the team member list, that someone is NOT eligible to become a player, even though that someone may be bench personnel in uniform sitting on the bench.

There is nothing in the rules that I know of that states that a coach can't have bench personnel other than his players or team members dressed in uniforms and sitting on the bench if the names of those bench personnel are NOT put on the team member list. And there is also nothing in the rules that I know of that won't allow bench personnel to warmup with their team. If you can find a citation that makes any of that illegal, please let me know.

"...all team members." Fair enough. So, are you saying you can apply a player technical foul to a coach, manager, or other bench personnel not intended to be players?

And rule 10-3-3 also states that that it applies not only to players but to all team members. What that rule doesn't state anywhere is that it also applies to any bench personnel who are neither players nor team members.

And here's a l'il sumthin' for you and JAR to ponder.......
Rule 10-3-3 has an EXCEPTION that says that a player may grasp the basket to prevent injury. Does that mean that a team member will get a "T" if he grasps the basket in warmup to prevent injury?

Heeheeheehee......:D

Disagree. NFHS rule 5-5-1 defines the intermissions as occurring between the first, second and third quarters. And rule 10-3-4 refers to the period prior to the game and the period during any intermission as being separate periods entirely.

Yea, you're right - I was typing in a hurry. I was simply trying to point out the differences between the terms - players, team members and bench personnel. So, forget I was ever here.

Carry on.

OK, I'll play. I say that depends.

Sitch 1: A-1 is without the ball near the basket in pregame. A-2 comes flying toward him. While A-1 jumps, he graps the ring while A-2 sails beneath him. Legal, as A-1 was avoiding injury.

Sitch 2: A-1 goes up the pregame dunk. As A-1 dunks, A-2 jumps to stop him. A-1 slams the ball home, then graps the ring to avoid contact with A-2. Technical foul for the pregame dunk.

Define not eligible. A name is accidentally left off the list. The person in question enters the game, then has his name added, at the expense of a technical foul. He is certainly now eligible. He became a player when he entered the court. Was he ever "not eligible?"

Furthermore, consider the intent and purpose of the rule. Dunking is not allowed in the warmups. Following your logic, Lebron James could go back to his old high school, suit up with the team, and put on a dunking exhibition during the warmups every night to inspire the players and their fans. Do you think this is the intent of this rule? I don't.

And that's all that I'm trying to do also. Methinks we're both coming at this from the same angle.

1) Um, yes, if that player's name was not on the team member list, then he is not eligible until his name is put on that list.I agree that someone from bench personnel can become eligible to be a team member at the expense of a technical foul. But until they do become eligible by being placed on the team member list, they are NOT a team member by rule.

2) I believe that I've already stated using my logic that this hypothetical situation can be handled by using the language of rule 10-4-1. That rule covers the actions of all bench personnel and also gives you the same result as the application of rule 10-3-3( direct "T" to BronBron and indirect "T" to his head coach). That sureasheck does cover the intent of the rule imo.

Nun Of This, Nun Of That ...
 

I told you that I was grasping at straws.

I had a game this past season, a Catholic school, girls, varsity game. Sitting on the end of the team bench was a nun, dressed in full habit. I would have loved to have seen her get in the layup line and slam one down.

http://thm-a02.yimg.com/nimage/0f09a9adcb121d6c

Tradition (Fiddler On The Roof) ...
 

By rule, you are 100% correct.

Again, that's just the way we do it around here. Not in the rulebook. Probably not in the manual. Nobody's doing anything wrong if they don't do it. It's just the way we've been doing it here in our little corner of Connecticut for, at least, the last thirty years.

Does anyone else outside my little corner of Connecticut compare the number of players warming up to the number of players listed in the scorebook? Just wondering?

One Little, Two Little, Three Little Indians ...
 

NFHS 2009-11 Basketball Officials Manual
Part 2 Game Procedures – Crew Of Two (page 15)
2.1 Pregame
A. Referee’s Duties:
7. Count the number of visiting team squad members.
8. Obtain the same information from umpire regarding the home team.
9. Verify the number of team members ... in the scorebook for each team.
B. Umpire Duties:
1. Count the number of home team squad members.

I know that the NFHS doesn't suggest to us what to do if the counts don't match up, but the NFHS must want us to do all this counting for some reason? Why are we counting? I think I know, but it's only for my little corner of Connecticut. Why is the rest of the country counting? Ask the NFHS. They must know the reason.

Hopefully they don't change that to "Playa....

I would hope that everyone does that. If you are in a 3 person crew your U1 and U2 should each be assigned a team to count players and make sure they are in "dress code". In a two person crew....need I explain. Then when the R goes to the table they should match the number they were given by their partners and what is in the book. Maybe even double check it yourself. That way if there are discrepancies, they can be sorted out before it gets REALLY interesting!

I'm well aware of what the Manual says, Billy. I have no idea what the definition of a "squad member" is by rule though. I'm guessing that it's the same as being a team member, but.... I'm just guessing. What I can't understand though is why there needs to be a count. There is nothing that I am aware of in the rules anywhere that states you can do anything with that information after you get it. Or that you are supposed to do anything if a team has more or fewer people warming up than are listed on the team member list.

You count people warming up. I don't know why. You verify the number of names listed as being team members. That's so that additional names aren't added after the 10-minute pre-game time limit specified. There's no rules prerequisite that I know of that states those numbers have to match-up though. That's my point.

If it gives you the same result, what are we arguing about? I thought you had said that you could not T a guy for dunking if he wasn't a team member. Is this not the case?

We do in Maine, too.

I always say that the toughest part of our jobs isn't block/charge or travelling, it's counting the moving kids during warmups!

One Potato, Two Potato, Three Potato, Four ...
 

Been there. Done that. Especially the drill, mostly used by girls teams, using two balls, where they form two lines on the endline, in line with the lane lines, and circle around the elbows to get a pass from a teammate before laying it in. It's the basketball version of three card monte.

The Pine Tree State ...
 

"As Maine goes, so goes the nation"

Just to be accurate, in post #28 of this thread you said that if someone is in uniform and warming up with the team, you can "T" that person up if he dunks. I don't agree with that at all. Whether you can "T" that person up depends on whether that person is bench personnel or not. If that person is not bench personnel, just have that person removed from the court. The only way that you could T this person up is by labelling him a team follower and using R2-8-1. That rule should only be used under extreme circumstances. If the person is bench personnel, find out whether that person is also a team member. If he is a team member, you can assess a "T" under R10-3-3 if they dunk. If he is not a team member, assess a "T" under R10-4-1 if they dunk.

That's the distinctions by rule that I've been trying to point out.

And also please note that I'm also still waiting for someone...anyone.... to find something....anything....under NFHS rules that says that the officials can actually do or are supposed to do something....anything... if their pre-game count of people warming up doesn't match the number of people listed as team members in the score book.

I think BillyMac has already conceded that, as you know, there is no RULE prescribing what action should be taken if the number of team members warming up does not match the number of names in the scorebook. However, any official worth a 5th-grade-game-paycheck will use just a little "preventative officiating" and mention to the coach that there aren't enough names in the book. That way, we don't have to resort to the RULE about what to do when a name is added after the 10-minute mark; which, again, you already know.

That covers more people warming up than names in the book. What action should any official worth a 5th grade game paycheck take if there are fewer people warming up than there are names in the book? And why?

I'm slowly working up to that level, so let me take a stab at it. ;) What we've done for years at the 4th grade level is take a count of players during warm-ups to compare to what's written the book, strictly for "preventative officiating". In other words, if the number of players on the floor agrees with the book, or is less than what's in the book, we're good, and there's nothing more to do. If the number on the floor is greater than what's in the book, we try to find out why. Did a player not get listed in the book? Is someone on the freshman (oops...3rd grade) team warming up, and they will never get in the game? We ask the coach and scorekeeper, get an answer, fix anything that needs to be fixed, and away we go.

I know some officials who take the book to each coach to have them verify all the names and numbers prior to the 10-minute mark. I always ask them why, and they tell me the same thing - it is preventative officiating, and if there are any book issues later, it would be easy to see it's 100% the coach's fault. I believe the IHSA also recently started requiring officals to do that in post-season games.

There's obviously no requirement otherwise to do it, but I think the reason a lot do it is because they want to avoid issuing penalties for "technicalities", rather than issues involving the game itself.

Keep an eye out for more players coming from the locker room. Other than that, since there is no penalty to be avoided through preventative officiating, there's no need to take any action.

The goal is to keep the game from being decided by a scorekeeper's error. Since points aren't going to be scored from too many names in the book, there's no need to worry about it.

Agree.

I would also add, that it may also jog the coaches memory. When I have more players in the book than I do on the floor I ask the coach is they are aware of that and if anyone else is coming. Usually, a player is sick or suspended or whatever and the scorebook keeper just copies one game to the next. THey also may have replaced a 'missing' player with someone else that may or may not be in the book. Or the coach may be expecting more people to come out of the training room/locker room then are in the book.
To me it is good preventative officiating, even though there is no rule!