5 second call in the backcourt
 

Has this ever happened in a game you were doing?

I was doing an AAU game today. My partner calls a 5 second closely guarded violation in the backcourt. Maybe he had a brain fart. I'm not sure. All I know is that I looked up when the whistle blew just in time for him to give the 5 fingers and point the other way. It was a strange way to start of the first of 6 games together.

I did it once, the first year I was an official -- probably my second game. Needless to say, I felt stupid.

Perhaps your partner is used to officiating under NCAA Women's rules? :confused: That's the only code where there can be a closely guarded count in the backcourt (provided the ball is held and the defender is within THREE feet).

Did you ask your partner about the call when you had the opportunity? How did he rationalize the call?

NCAA Women's is NOT the only code that has this violation, so does FIBA.

MTD, Sr.

Did you ever speak with him about it, Hornet?

I didn't bother to ask. When he called it, he didn't seem 100% sure about it, so I just assumed that he had a moment. I probably should have though.

These things may appear delicate, but they can be handled.

If you call over your partner, and have a brief, quiet discussion away from the players, you can let him know that the rule in question isn't applicable at that time. (Don't do this on judgment calls, only when a rule is kicked.) Communicate the correct rule to him, and leave it up to him to change it to an inadvertant whistle, if he chooses.

In my sophomore year, I had a backcourt violation a few seconds after the tip-off. I may have kicked it, but that's not what sticks in my mind. My veteran partner immediately changed my call, without even speaking to me, and gave it back to the "violating" team for a division-line throw in. I was too stunned to react, and I didn't speak with him about it either, but I lost a ton of respect for the man for handling it that way.

Well we didn't start off communicating well. He came over at the beginning of that game and said that due to the fact that we had to do 6 games, we would not do any switching on foul calls. I didn't like the idea because I know that looks bad on a crew and plus, I like to always do this job right, but I gave in because he is 20 years my senior in the officiating profession, and is a regular at this particular venue.

Over the course of the games he constantly reached into my primary to make calls, he showed horrible mechanics, let 6th grade boys consistently beat him down the court as lead, and he just didn't look like he was trying very hard. At the end of the first game, I was just concerned with getting the others over with while keeping my questions to a minimum. He was a nice guy, but not very professional. But then again, he's certified and I'm not, so what do I know. Maybe that's what you get during summer AAU ball.

Someone gave you 6 games to do in one setting and you think it makes you look bad to not switch on fouls? Really?

You are working 6 games in a row, yeah!!!! Be glad he even ran.

Peace

You had to do six games and he didn't want to switch? In summer AAU games? And you think that looks bad on a crew?

Lah me!

Just....lah me!

I sureashell don't want to resurrect that long thread that just ended a while ago on the same subject.....the topic was beaten to death....but if your partner has some shortcomings as an official, not switching while doing 6 AAU games in 1 day sureashell ain't one of them imo.

Ask an assignor sometimes what he thinks of this. He'll probably tell you that if he insisted that his officials follow correct mechanics for 6 rec games in a day, he wouldn't find enough people to staff a pick-up game on an outside MS court.

timing rules and switiching
 

So in your AAU is clock running or not?

In our AAU,we use a running clock (stops on freethrows and last two minutes of half)...

So we always switch, and take our time doing it...

Like I said, I'm new to how things are done outside the strict rigors of our intramural program, so maybe I'm just too young to know any better. I just know I would have been ripped by my former boss for not putting in the effort. And in those games we worked 3 game shifts for much higher levels of play. Maybe I try too hard. Who knows. To me, switching does not require a lot of effort. I wasn't expecting a switch on every single call, but a moderate number would have been sufficient. I understand that all of that takes a toll on the body. Also, running at the pace of 6th graders doesn't require you to be ready for the olympics. A light jog will put you in a great position. Those And usually the switch is anywhere from a walk to a light jog, so I don't see what the big deal is about doing it. And I've done 7 and 8 games in a day. I was a bit sore when done, but otherwise ok.

If you're lead, and you are at the free throw line extended when the action has settled in the front court, yes, I have a problem with that. Those people pay to play, so I think they deserve officials matching their effort. Maybe that's just me. I'm fine with being in the minority on that. We all volunteer the shifts that we are assigned. I think it would be pretty easy to say to the assignor, "No, I can't run for 6 game. Please only give me 3."

Yes, it's a running clock that stops during the last two minutes of the half. And yes, you could take your time during the switch.

Correct. OTOH, a five second closely guarded player violation is the last thing that can happen in the back court. The definition of closely guarded is
A dribble ends the count, which can start again only at the end of the dribble. Since there are 8 seconds to bring the ball in the front court, you see that it's almost impossible to call that kind of violation. Of course, players are able to harm themselves in many incredible ways. :)

Note: 1 m is a tad more than 3 ft, precisely 3 ft and 3.37 in. Isn't it easier to say "one meter"? :)

Ciao

I've worked tons of leagues and tournaments where we had at least four games in a row without a break. Usually, I'll tell my partner to switch "when it makes sense". That means when a foul call puts you in a position in which a switch would be a minimal change. However, if we go quite a long time without a switch, I'll usually indicate a switch on the next foul regardless of our positioning. Of course, sometimes we switch on violations if not switching would mean a significant change of position.

Around here, this is also referred to as "convenience mechanics".

A few years ago, I worked with a guy in a 5 games in a row situation in which he started switching on every foul. I told him there was no way I wanted to do that. He apologized and said it was "just habit." From then on, I could tell he had to physically stop himself from switching every time.

Yeah you are too young right now to get what others are saying or trying to convey. All I am saying is that if you are working 6 games in a row more, you will realize that you will tire out quickly. Also taking 6 games in a row is not just about the games, it is about getting them scheduled. If the assignor did not get a guy like this and others to cover those games, he/she might not get those games covered at all. And if it was a problem that the mechanics were not perfect, do you really think the assignor would give a person 6 games? Why not give everyone one game at a time? Probably because it is AAU and they know that the quality of the officials are not going to always be there considering that you are likely getting paid less than a 1/3 of what you might make during the regular season. This is summer ball, relax. There is a reason you do not get all the "regulars" working these games. And it is 6th grade kids, not much of a draw for many officials unless they want to make it worth their while and work multiple games in a row.

Peace

Le Système International D'Unités ...
 

What's that in the metric system?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...hure_Cover.jpg

I didn't really mean to get all up about the switching thing. It wasn't really that big of a problem to me. It was just that he didn't bother to discuss the not switching thing with me. He just said. We're not switching. No discussion. Just a mandate. That part I can't appreciate.

Also, not all the games are 6th grade. I've done everything from 6th grade to 17 y/o there. It's just the luck of the draw depending on what they have coming in for the week.

I by no means am trying to demean a fellow official. I'm just saying that when I processed all of the rest of the information from how he officiated the rest of the games and how he communicated (or lack there of) with me, I had no real motive to question his 5 seconds in the backcourt call. I just charged it to him making a mistake. I don't know whether it was a conscious or unconscious mistake. Only he knows.

And Mr. Rutledge. When do I become old enough to understand? I don't know if I'll look forward to the day when I can no longer run at an officials pace for 6 games. That would mean that I could probably only play 2 or 3. I think that means I'm over the hump!

Also, I understand that all of the A-team officials only lace up their sneakers for the big times, and that I'm on the C team at the moment. I'll get there one day! :D

I try to use AAU to work on things like positioning or a particular type of call I have to improve upon. Switching on fouls does NOT always occur unless it is a crew of 3. If the trail calls one in the backcourt, he stays trail. If the trail calls one in the forecourt, he stays trail. If the lead calls one and it is a shooting foul, he usually will come out to be the new trail. If there has not been a switch in awhile, one might occur on a violation or sideline OOB throw-in. If I am doing 2-3 games only, then I am more apt to switch more often. Otherwise, I am trying to save my legs. 6 is the absolute limit for me and if it is younger kids for the last game, I am very thankful.

I have modified my stance on the number of games and absolute mechanics over the years. The important thing is to give your best effort. And you might even pick up a tip or two that you can incorporate into your game.

One More Time ...
 

Jurassic Referee: Sorry. It had to be done:

The Forum's opinion:
http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...-my-years.html

My personal take on this matter:
http://forum.officiating.com/680359-post173.html

You are the younger (lesser experience) official right? You have not been around that long right? I think there was another post by someone that talked about the politics of this. What are you going to do if he refuses? I do not recall that you even questioned it, you listened to what he said (based on what you told us) and went with it. Now what?

Even more reason to not go crazy over this situation.

I did not take the issue as demeaning the official at all. You raised an honest and reasonable question as it relates to the rule. He probably works Women's college and applied a rule to that level. I have even heard of some girl's AAU using those rules as well. But I guess that depends on what tournament and the circumstances of the tournament.

When you realize that summer is completely different than winter basketball and always will be. The players are playing multiple games in a day. Do you know any regular season games where that is likely the case other than a holiday tournament? I know I cannot think of many. Even the Holiday Tournaments there is one game at a time and not one court next to another. Did you get dressed in full uniform too? There are so many things different about the summer time I would be here a lot longer trying to explain them to you or anyone.

I like your enthusiasm to get things right and to do what you feel is right. But my point is stop trying to make the summer time the same as the regular season and you like others will finally understand what this how it is different.

The only big games in the summer are games you are working at camp and you are being evaluated or trying to get hired. Some AAU tournament where most officials are seeing ball they may never see during the regular season is not on that level. Talk to me when you work bigger games in the regular season and then come back here and share your opinions on switching on every foul.

Peace

Well, 8 seconds are, let me see...

Ah, yes! They are 8 seconds. :)

Ciao

I got the Kilometer thing pretty easily but
 

Whew. I thought there were 10 DeciMinutes per Minute, thus making 8 "Standard" seconds something along the lines of 1.33 DeciMinutes.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ublicaine1.jpg

Don't tell Mark Padgett, it's a French thing. :)

Ciao

Metric Clock ???
 

http://thm-a02.yimg.com/nimage/366b9baf35569250

Is it time for dinner yet?

The most expensive cheeseburger I have ever had was in Italy ($28 but I was two tables over from Sting - the singer not the rassler) and I asked a waiter in Grenoble (FR) if I could have grilled steak tar tar!! The French have no sense of humor, but I did tell him I LOVED their fries, bread and toast!

Why on earth would anybody eat a cheeseburger in Italy? :D You just had what you deserved. :p :)

Ciao

+1

Most girls games in AAU use NCAA-W rules and mechanics. So, if it was a held ball, within 3 feet, then thats probably what he was doing.

Really? Haven't done AAU in a couple of years, but I've only seen them use NFHS rules.

Oh I agree, and I ate VERY well the next couple of days. However, if you had been where I had been for the previous couple of months, as an American, I felt it was my DUTY to go for a cheeseburger first.!:D

Hooah!

Well, the first thing I ate, last time I went to the US, was a cheeseburger. And pretty good, I'd say. :) When in Rome…

Ciao

...eat cheeseburgers? :confused:

All AAU girls games are supposed to be played under NCAA-W rules. Many do not because they do not have shot clocks available. But if you go to any type of national qualifier or national chanmpionship: NCAA-W rules.

When in Rome, do as Romans do". So in the US, eat a cheeseburger; in Rome abbacchio or carciofi alla giudia or pasta all'amatriciana or ... :) And many other things in the rest of Italy. :D

Ciao

You Missed One ...
 

And since only eight states have shot clocks for their HS games, it is likely that this rule isn't enforced more often than it is used.
The options available to the AAU tournament are: play without the shot clock, get shot clocks from a nearby facility, playing at a local college gym which has them, or bring in a bunch of them.